Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Hi All,
does anybody know what is behind such a flight. Roughly translated it is a sound supression flight. The aircraft used was a Ju 88.

Thanks,

Norbert

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

I wonder if this has something to do with acoustic "radar", either testing their own or testing suppression/evading techniques. Here is a little background on the detectors.

http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSE...MS/ear/ear.htm

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

What about using the noise of aircraft to disguise the sound of vehicle movements behind the battle front (e.g. during the build-up for an attack)? I seem to remember reading that all nations did this sometimes.

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

I guess we need to know when and where the flight(s) were made to get any better ideas. Is there a link to an article??

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Hi All,
the flight inquestion was a KG 66 Ju 88 S-1 that was lost during such a flight on 31-Aug-43 near Villaroche.

Regards,

Norbert

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

I looked up a little background on KG 66. It appears to have been formed as a pathfinder unit. Was working up in the summer of 1943 and was trained to use radio & radar blind bombing systems. Nothing about "sound suppression"

http://www.wiki.luftwaffedata.co.uk/...hp?title=KG_66

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

According to ADIK report 160/1944 the 3rd staffel of I/KG66 ( operating with 5 staffeln intill a reorganistion to 3 staffeln in mid 1944) was known as the Storstaffel (jamming staffel) Radar investigation and jamming flights. Crew included an English speaking signals officer, and investigates counter measures to navigational aids and laying decoy flares. Ju88 S-1 Z6+CL was reported lost on 29/30-1-44 with Horchfunker Uffz. Johann Platzer plus 3 killed over the Scheldt Estuary. In this contest would Schalldämpfungsflug indicate a a enemy signal/transmission damping flight ?

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

That mysterious 3./KG66 "Hör-und Störstaffel" is giving me a headache! It was an Electronic Warfare unit (listening to British frequencies and radar jamming) and it may have been attached to I./KG66 only for administrative purposes (i.e. its crews not mixing with the crews of the other I./KG66 Staffeln). Apart from a few losses in my losses list or some statements in British documents, I have not encountered a single veteran, Flugbuch (log) or photo of this spooky unit... And none of the surviving I./KG66 veterans has any recollection of ever meeting one of those guys..

Regarding "Schalldämpfungsflug", this crash of Ju 88 S-1 Z6+DL (W.Nr. 140580) of Uffz Ottomar Grünthal is the only time in my records for the entire war that this term pops up.. While the time of the crash at 3:30 AM suggests an operational/combat flight, it is not marked als "Feindflug" in my losses list. Together with the crash location inland (Villaroche) and the fact that a technical person i.e. 1. Wart (Crew Chief) Gefr Karl Marschall was on board, could this point to maintenance test flight?

Just guessing: Maybe they were suppressing/measuring something on or in the aircraft itself?

Regards,

Marcel

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

By using my normally reliable German dictionary, the word Schalldämpfer means sound silencer, like the one you use on guns or a trumpet sordin. The word Schall means sound, tone or similar. Schallplatte is a grammophone record.
Used on aircraft it should mean that this particular aircraft had some form of silencing equipment to avoid detection.

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

It is not in my Air Ministry 'Manual of German Air Force Terminology' but according to my copy of the HMSO 'Vocabulary of German Military Terms & Abbreviations' it is, quite simply, a silencer.

Perhaps if not in this context as an engine silencer per se, then maybe an operational flight to 'silence' something else?

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

This site for Grünthal, Ottomar from 2/KG-66:

http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...anPilotsG.html

Has this description:

KIA 31 August, 1943; crashed during a sound-proofing (?) mission, 8.5 km east of Villaroche, by Petit Plessig, cause unknown. Remaining crew (KIA): Lt Karl Reitzenstein, geb 6/5/1919, Obs; Uffz Josef Ries, geb 2/11/1918, R/O and Gefr Karl Marschall, geb 1/20/1922, 1/Wart. Source: B.Bines.

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Thanks to everyone who contributed to answering my question. Any idea if there were any tests for engine exhaust silencers for the Ju 88? I can imagine it would help reduce detection especially at night.

Regards,

Norbert

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

BTW: Does anybody have the NVM for Uffz Ottomar Grünthal and his Besatzung (crew)? Please contact me by PM or off the board.

Thanks in advance,

Marcel

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

A couple more thoughts on this Schalldampungsflug can translate as sound lowering flight, could this be trial flight to establish the flight characteristics needed to lower the noise in the cockpit. According to ADIK 160/1944 the main task of 3/KG66 was to anticipate and attempt diversion of Bomber command night attacks. Crews included an English speaking radio officer a Horchf., I believe Horchen means to investigate or eavesdrop. If cockpit noise could be reduced by engine management etc. would this have helped the Horchf. with listening in on RAF transmissions. The 'K' also said 3/KG66 operated over German controlled airspace which would seem to negate the need to silence the aircraft from enemy sound detectors. ADIK report for a POW from 2/KG76 on the night of 29/30-1-44 says that the day after the first Steinbock attacks crews were told only 14 RAF NF's were operating that night. Despite the accuracy of that figure one wonders whether the info. came from 3/KG66.
It would be good if the definite meaning of the little used term Schalldampfungsflug could be found.

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

This link can possibly help
http://www.wiki.luftwaffedata.co.uk/...hp?title=KG_66
Im sorry but KG 66 is a bit far out for me so I have to rely on others.

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Hi All,
thanks for the extraordinary feedback to my inquiry. Never expected this! Hopefully there will be an answer to this mystery soon. Anybody with KG 66 war diary copies that may put a light on this????

Regards,

Norbert

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Do not know if this is relavant ... (besides it was S-1 140588 not 140580 SL+PV that was converted to Ju 88 P "Tank-buster")

I seem remember 3./KG 66 (Horch und Störstaffel) became 6.(F)/123 later, but I suspect designation "3/KG 66" having been a cover, possibly the real one was this here....

- Sonderkommando Rastádter/KG 40
An special SIGINT unit was attached in June 1943. Using the Do 217, He 111 and Ju 88 aircraft. Made operational tests in June, July and August 1943 to determine radar frequencies of the Allied Mk.III centimetric radar etc. Continiued operating untill April 1944, when it became a full electronic warfare unit (Horch und Störstaffel 2) finally absorbed by 4./FAGr 5 (Ju 290) in May 1944.

but I am no expert on these matters ...

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Thanks Ed for posting that, the Radtke KG54 history opp. page 206 has an order dated 25-4-1944. This shows the exsisting 3/KG66 (Horch und Störstaffel) becoming 6(F)/123, and 4/KG54 to become the new 3/KG66. ADIK 381/1944 ( capture of a BF from 3/KG66 on 16-7-44) shows that when a KG54 crew joined the 'Egon' staffel (5/KG66) in March the aircraft codes were Z6+-N, but in early June the 'E' staffel designation was dropped and the unit became 3/KG66 with aircraft codes becoming Z6+-L.
ADIK 160/1944 dated 5-4-1944 shows the Staffel Kap. of 3/KG66 (Horch und Störstaffel) as being Signals officer Oblt. de Milde, is it known if this officer links to Sdkdo.Rastadter/KG40. The only thing shown about him was that previously he had been at Halle.

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Brian

According the A.I 12 handbook

Horchf. = Horchfunker

(Wireless Interceptor)

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the interesting comment! What's your source and do you have pictures of the aircraft of this mysterious unit? It confirms my suspicions that 3./KG66 had nothing in common with I./KG66 except for the designation. (And hence that none of the I./KG66 veterans had any recollections about this unit and its men.)

@Brian: Name of the Staffelkapitän is probably Oblt. Heinz de Wilde instead of "de Milde". ("De Wilde" is a Dutch family name, maybe he was of Dutch origin.) There's a photo of him on page 244 of Jan Horn's KG6 unit history Volume 2. Aperently he was 15./KG6's last Staffelkapitän (15./KG6 being the nucleus for the new I./KG66.) According to Horn, Oblt. de Wilde was "Referent für Offiziers-Ausbildung der Ln.-Truppe beim Chef des Nachrichten-und Verbindungswesen im RLM" before that. I don't know completely what this mouthful means, but at least it has something to do with signals (which makes sense)!

BTW: Regarding "Schalldämpfungsflug", we have all been focussing on the suppression of engine (exhaust) sound so far. Could it be that they were actually trying to suppress the aircraft or systems electronic emissions ?(i.e. stealth?!)

Interesting topic!

Regards,

Marcel

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Norbert,

The problem is that, as far as I'm aware, there is no official I./KG66 War Diary..................

Would have made my life so much easier!

Regards,

Marcel

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Hi All,
thanks again for the efford. I tried other sites and the response was zero. At least here some very interesting ideas surfaced.

Thanks again,

Norbert

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

The summer of 1943 was a very active time for measures and countermeasures. Window was first used by the RAF 24/25 July. Ground Cigar, the jamming of radio frequencies controlling individual night fighters was first used July 30/31. (Airborne Cigar and Carona came in the fall). Tinsel, the jamming of radio frequencies for mass control of night fighters had been used for a while, but Special Tinsel was first used in June, so it would not surprise me that by the end of August the Germans were actively testing countermeasures. It may well be that this flight was involved in some of that research and testing.

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

@Heijkop and others

I do not have exactly the proof you all ask for, might not be exactly same unit, possibly I just wrote it wrongly, sorry, but both appear concealed within other units, so I thought it might be connected (even same "unit"). On re-reading my files it appears the Sonderkommando Rastádter/KG 40 was another unit, becoming 2. Staffeln, Lots of questions here and very little "proof". But some planes of 6.(F)/123 can be traced to 3./KG 66.

Only fotos I know of is Ju 88 S-1 140604 RF+MT ex-3./KG 66 (after October 1943) and 6.(F)/123 (May 1944), captured at JFM-FRB Villacoublay in August 1944, but others from 6.(F)/123 I have info of, all had Stkz. given when in 6.(F)/123.

These can be traced from HW 5 "Ultra" in May 1944 onwards, I do not have complete set, only some pages, there might be info found in 1943 Ultra (I have none of these).

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Hi, all

I do not know if it is of interest, but I just found a redesignation entry for the Horch-u.Störstaffel in a document in my collection.

The entry reads:

8.5.1944 Horch.-u.Störstaffel in 4./Fernaufkl.Gr.5 K.St.N. lt.Vfg

In addition I found that the 4./Fernaufkl.Gr.5 was dissolved on 25.7.1944

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Hi.

A little bit of additional information, possibly of interest:

Another document in my collection listing the flying units as of 10.2.1945 list the Kampfgeschwader 66 as follows:

Kampfgeschwader 66

I. Gruppe
1. St. (Einsatz)
2.St. (Erprobung)
3.St. (Horch-u.Störst.)

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Andreas,

Are you sure about the year 1945? Both Erprobung for the 2nd Staffel and Horch und Stör for the 3rd Staffel come as a surprise for me. 1944 would be more logical..(But I stand corrected ;))

Regards,

Marcel

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Hi.

With regards to some aircraft of 3./KG 66 being traced to 6.(F)/123 this is not very strange:

On 25.4.1944 the following designation changes are noted:

25.4.1944 3./KG 66 in 6./Fernaufkl.Gr.123 K.St.N. lt.Vfg
25.4.1944 4./KG 54 in 3./KG 66 K.St.N. lt.Vfg

So the 'old' 3./KG 66 at this point became the 6./FAGr 123, while the 4./KG 54 became the 'new' 3./KG 66

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Schalldämpfungsflug
 

Hi, Marcel.

Never entirely sure ;)...

The document is named Organisation Lw. (Fliegertruppe) Fliegende Verbände Stand 10.2.1945 issued by Genst.Gen.Au.2.Abt. (IIB)

The explanation could of course be that they used a preprinted document from earlier, without changing the data on the Staffel designations.

The document is full of handwritten comments - units being stricken and so on, so it is a possibility.

But at least the 3. Staffel was at one time the Horch.-u.Störstaffel ;)

Regards,
Andreas B