E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Hi gents!

A little strange question from me (zertorer-interested guy), but:

Were ever 40-41 claims of Rudorffer verified (checked)? I've started to check his eastern claims, and interested to compare overclaim rate when he was with JG2 in France.

14/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Curtiss SW Les Sees la Gresn: 2000m 15.08
17/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 LeO 451 La Caponne 13.28
19/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Morane 406 E. Guise 7.3
25/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Blenheim St. Quentin 20.35
26/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire NW Calais: 2500m 9.45
26/05/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire NW Calais 9.47
06/06/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Martin 167 N. Roye 20.45
06/06/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 LeO 451 N. Roye: 1500m 20.5
06/06/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Curtiss N. Soissons 13.10 Western Front

11/08/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire SE Portland: 7000m 11.49 Western Front
11/08/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane E. Weymouth 11.38 Western Front
31/08/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane Dover 9.4 Western Front
01/09/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire Dover 12.45 Western Front
02/09/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane Faversham 18.2 Western Front
04/09/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane Dover 9.58 Western Front
07/09/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Hurricane Themesmündung 18.3 Western Front
07/09/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire Themesmündung 18.4 Western Front
07/09/1940 Fw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire Themesmündung 18.43 Western Front
10/10/1940 Ofw. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Spitfire Portland 16.2 Western Front

21/04/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 2 JG 2 Blenheim 30km N. Jersey 15.03 Western Front
07/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire E. Boulogne 15.35 Western Front
07/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire E. Boulogne 15.4 Western Front
09/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Hurricane NW St. Omer 13.45 Western Front
09/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire SW St. Omer 13.4 Western Front
10/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire S. Desvres 12.3 Western Front
11/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer Stab II. JG 2 Spitfire N. Boulogne 15 Western Front
19/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire SE Calais 14.25 Western Front
23/07/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire W. Calais 13.18 Western Front
05/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Gravelines 10.05 Western Front
05/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Dünkirchen 19.05 Western Front
10/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Hurricane NE Calais 14.15 Western Front
19/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Dover 12.15 Western Front
19/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Dover 11.59 Western Front
19/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Dover 12.06 Western Front
21/08/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Calais 15.1 Western Front
20/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire NE Dieppe 16.55 Western Front
21/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Ärmelkanal 17.05 Western Front
21/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Ärmelkanal 16.55 Western Front
21/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Ärmelkanal 16.5 Western Front
27/09/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire Le Touquet 15.4 Western Front
08/12/1941 Ltn. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Hurricane W. Boulogne 12.55 Western Front
03/06/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Le Havre 16.35 Western Front
03/06/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Le Havre 16.38 Western Front
05/06/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 5 JG 2 Spitfire N. Le Havre 15.46 Western Front
19/08/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Dieppe 16.52 Western Front
19/08/1942 Oblt. Erich Rudorffer 6 JG 2 Spitfire N. Dieppe 16.53 Western Front

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Hi Evgeny,

Interesting question.
Of your long list of claims I can only talk about the first three, but then indeed some questions as to claim reliability (of the entire I./JG2) come up.

14-5 20.00
4 Moranes claimed by 1./JG2 (Machold, Bertram, Täscher) and one Hawk by Rudolffer. Interestingly, this is the only Luftwaffe claim on this day I have not been able to match to any allied loss. Neither French nor British. I don't have any indication of allied losses around 20.00 GT (19.00 local) on the axis Cambrai-Bouillon where JG2 claimed.

17-5 13.25
4 Leo451 claimed by 2./JG2 (Rudorffer, Keil, Hoffmann, Hermes).
Indeed there was the interception of a flight of Leo451's of GB I/31, who lost 3 aircraft. However, French stories confirm interception by Bf110's too, so one of the three Leo's is most probably downed by a 4./ZG76 Bf110. That leaves two actual losses vs. 4 claims.

19-5 07.30
5 Moranes claimed by 2./JG2 (Rudorffer, Hoffmann, Hermes, Mund, Leipelt). This was almost certainly the fight with 15 Moranes of GC III/1 and GC II/2, but none of these was lost. The French pilots stated they fought against 30 Bf109's, which suggests the entire I./JG2. If that is the case, then interesting to see only 2./JG2 claimed, statistically not very likely.

All later days I have not analyzed, but at least these first three ones don't give a high level of confidence in the future claims of 2./JG2 and/or Fw Rudorffer. 14 aircraft claimed, vs. 2 actual losses. That is 600% over-claiming!

Regards, Pieter

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Thx Pieter!

I've already found some very interesting days of Rudorffer over Eastern Front with outch overclaiming... And I have some info about his African victories... And I see now, roots are in 1940... Well :)

I suggest high overclaim during BoB, but interesting - what was with his claims a bit later, during 41 and 42 (Dieppe)?

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

From the book by Peter D. Cornwell "The Battle Of France Then And Now"
17May40 GB I/31 LeO 451 crashed at Le-Grand-Pre St. Lt. A. Rigourd
25May40 GBA II/54 Breguet (13) W. of Roye Sgt. Badel (WIA)
26May40 19 Sqd, Hornchurch Spitfire N3200 W. of Calais S/L G.D. Stephenson (POW)
06Jun40 GB I/62 Martin 167F (75) damaged N. of Roye Sgt Bontemps (WIA)
06Jun40 GC II/5 Curtiss H-75 (56) severly damaged & written off after forced landing Sgt. J. Janeba.
All of these are listed "Possibly".

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Evegny -would you be willing to share your Ostfront findings on Ruddorfer?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Rob - of cource yes, When I'll finish it :)

I have also some questions about some of his Tunisian claims, but I'll ask about them a bit later. Some claims clear for me, some - not.

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Evgeny:

I will strongly echo Rob's suggestion that you share your findings regarding Rudorffer's claims. This subject has come up many times on this and other boards.

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

John - question near Rudorffers actions:

I search III./SG3 losses on 05/09/1944. There was a huge dogfight around Tartu. II./JG54 and III./SG3 claimed hardly, but seems without own losses (at least II./JG54). What for III./SG3?

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

11Aug40: Possibly one of the 4 Hurricane I of the 238 Sqn shot down off Weymouth at 10:40. The Spitfire could be a mis-Id but a lot of claims in that area by JG2, 27 and 53.

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Well, I'm not sure if you mean May 9, 1944 or 5-Sep-1944, but regardless, I have no losses for III./SG 3 Fw 190s in either period. Sources indicate they switched from Stukas to 190s in the spring of 1944, but the first losses I have are in January '45.

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

From the book "Focke-Wulf FW 190 In North Africa" by Andrew Arthy & Morten Jessen

18Dec42 Spitfire (#46) 72nd & 152 Sqn (Looks like JG53 got the only loss from this unit)
20Dec42 Spitfire (#47) 72nd Sqn P/O Robertson
8Jan43 Boston (#48) -
8Jan43 P-38 (#49) 82nd or 14 FG (Lost 3 & 2 damaged) II/JG2 claimed 6.
8Jan43 Mustang (#50) 58 FS/33 FG No loss
18Jan43 Spitfire (#51) 232 Sqn S/Ldr Winskill (Looks like he "shared" with Lt Fritz Karch 6./JG2
04Feb43 Spitfire (#52 & 53) 5th or 6th FS/52nd FG (3 Losses) II/JG2 6 claims
09Feb43 Curtiss P-40 (54-59) GC II/5 (3 Losses) II/JG2 12 claims
09Feb43 P-38 (60 & 61) 94 FS/1st FG No losses
14Feb43 Spitfire (62) ?
15Feb43 P-38 (63-65) 1st & 82nd FG No losses
15Feb43 Spitfire (66-68) -
15Feb43 P-38 (69) 1st & 82nd FG No losses
11Mar43 Spitfire (70-71) 52nd FG one loss
12Mar43 B-17 (#72) -

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Hi guys,

There have already been a few good discussions on this board about the claims by II./J.G. 2 and Erich Rudorffer in Tunisia.

Mark Reardon did some excellent work matching up P-38 claims and losses in Tunisia in this thread, including the P-38 claims by Rudorffer and his II./J.G. 2 comrades: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=24947

Please also see this thread: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=4966

Also: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=7155

Finally, for the 4 February 1943 combat: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=4860


Regarding Focke-Wulf Fw 190 in North Africa, Morten and I missed a few 82nd FG losses in our book, but I'm still happy with most of our conclusions regarding the Rudorffer combats.

I don't wish to slander the man. Despite some dubious claims in Tunisia and on the Eastern Front, he was an outstanding combat pilot and leader who fought throughout the war, and submitted more 'genuine' aerial victory claims than most other pilots in history.


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Andrew:thanks a lot, I saw that threads, and noted.

John: I mean 5 september 1944, air combat around Tartu, Estonia.

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Regarding the Dieppe claims, these seem relatively accurate.

During the period mentioned 2./JG2 clashed with the Ibsley Wing (129 and 501 Sqn's) which suffered one Spitfire shot down and two damaged (one so badly it crashed on return and the other in which the pilot was wounded by splinters). And then with 111, 308th FS, 350, 402 and 611 Sqn's which suffered one Spitfire damaged.

Together with Oblt Rudorffers two claims, Fw Mascher claimed on Spitfire at 1650. Therefore Luftwaffe claims for three Spitfires shot down are not too far off the actual losses of one shot down, one badly damaged and two damaged.

Regards,

Steve

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Steve - thanks, but as I know, Rudorffer was with 6./JG2, not 2./JG2?

Re: E.Rudorffer early war claims question
 

Rob, John, Michael:

answered in this thread (Libau 28 10 44).