P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Hello,

I was wondering if anybody could list any P-38s lost/damaged in southern Greece during the 15th and 17th of November, 1943. As always, thanks in advance.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

There is a couple of discussions going on this board, http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/

See the Bartel and Hartmann threads.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

the Bartels one is mine. I just need a difinitive answer on the P-38 situation.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Nov. 15, P-38F (431115) of 71FS, James A McClure, MACR 1306

Can't find any for the 17th

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Just a tad bit of over-claiming by the Luftwaffe that day. The 82nd FG history actually mentions this as they lost no 38s despite the JG27 claims. The 14th FG were not involved and as mentioned the 1st FG lost one. That's it for possible 38 Groups involved.

Nothing on the 17th although again the Luftwaffe over claimed as the only loss was one B25 for the USAAF that day.

Interesting to note that the 38 Groups involved did not over claim. Somewhat amazing that the Luftwaffe claims were for 13-14 38s on the 15th and 5 on the 17th, when in fact 1 was lost. That's some seriously exaggerated claims.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Got me thinking. If Bartels was credited with 7 P38s when in fact only one was lost. Does that not put his claims under the microscope? That's even if you concede he got the one 38 that was lost, which considering the 19 claimed, was shot down by Bartels.

That's not a small discrepancy given he was credited with 7 kills over his own turf with all of them potentially phantom claims.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Hi guys

Just to add some fuel to the fire - I note that on 20 December 1943, when 100+ B-17s with an escort of 60+ P-38s raided Eleusis, 17 German fighters were claimed destroyed, plus 3 probables and 3 damaged, out of an attacking force estimated to have numbered 35.

I'm not aware of actual losses but do believe an element of overclaiming!

Cheers
Brian

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Hello Brian
Hammel writes that the 14th FG escort pilots claimed 8 Bf 109s and a Fw 190. Ring gives only one III./JG 27 pilot KIA. Murawski agrees and adds that Fw. Dietz from 7./JG 27 was killed when B-17 gunners shot down his a/c. He adds that IV./JG 27 was temporary out of business because it was roughly handed by Spits on 17 Dec (3 KIA, one of them Kommandeur, who succeeded to bail out but was captured by partisans and later executed, and 2 MIA). III./ JG 27 claimed5 bombers and 2 P-38s on 20 Dec. I’m not greatly shocked to find out that USAAF fighters overclaimed in MTO, IMHO USAAF pilots got confirmation easier in MTO than in ETO in 1943-45 but 8 109s claimed by 38 pilots vs one shot down by bomber gunners is clearly worse than I’d have expected. Not sure was there other Axis S/E units save Stab/SG 3, which IIRC still had Ju87Ds, so I have no idea was the 190 also 109 or another type.

Juha

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

You'd expect more over claiming by the guys flying over the other guy's turf. Getting a look at a wreck on the ground is a bit tough in that situation. No one has ever denied there was over claiming.

The problem is Bartels and company were over their own turf and we've always been lead to believe that LW claims were meticulously documented and confirmed.

Clearly not the case if in a two day stretch they claim 19 P38s when in fact one was lost to flak.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Hello Dan
I agree and that 15-17th Nov 43 wasn’t only case when that happened, I recall at least one case in Italy. when LW overclaimed badly while combating over their own a/f.

On the 15 and 17 Nov cases, IV./JG 27 was a new unit, its CO had came from the position of the CO of 5./JG 3. So to a new unit in new environment as his first Kommandeur posting. Maybe those facts had something to do with its heavy overclaiming even if Kirchner was a nice man and excellent pilot.

And BTW Kirchner was in fact shot down by P-47s from 57th FG, on 17 Dec IV./JG 27 seems to have first a combat with Spits and then with 57th FG and it was during the latter when Kirschner was shot down.

And on 20 Dec at least part of the claims were made by pilots from 82nd FG which also lost 3 pilots as POWs. So III./JG 27 claims seemed to have been accurate at least against P-38s. Hammel’s book isn’t the best source but handy. I cannot check 14th FG claims/losses because database of armyairforce.com is down.

Juha

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Interesting! How many P-38's were damaged and to what extent? Also confirming the down location in mountain and rough terrain is rather difficult (I've read articles were planes are still being dug out of the ground). Also there was the danger of partisans as already mentioned.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

One 82nd 38 lost an engine due to mechanical failure but returned to base. No others damaged that I can find in the 1st, 82nd, or 14th FG histories.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

personally I think a bunch of -38s were damaged by e/a and mistaken as kills. I can't prove it.. just a hunch.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

One of the advantages of having two engines, maybe? One smokes & gets feathered while the other one keeps running & still gets the plane back to Foggia?

NM

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Well the Group histories of all three 38 Groups, seem to mention damaged birds when it happened, and there is nothing mentioned. That the single engined bird is mentioned clearly. Since it got home too, why mention it and not a bunch of damaged 38s?

Not quite sure why they'd hide it.

Seems to me that the Luftwaffe guys saw what they wanted to see that day and were wrong

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Hello Nokose
IMHO its a bit odd that Germans didn’t wonder what happened to all those P-38 pilots. It’s statistically odd if all those 14 pilots claimed to be shot down on 15 Nov 43 would have been killed and only one body would have been found and probably even that that all survivors would have evaded. From strike photo one sees that even the reported heavy overcast was all above the B-25s at least over the Kalamaki a/f (the target). And it was a medium altitude (11.700ft) level bombing attack and bomber crews were able to make observation on shipping and on an a/f on route into and out from the target area, so parachutes should have been seen from fairly far away.

IMHO this and other similar cases show that there were lapses in LW’s theoretically very strict claim confirmation procedures and that there were problematic LW units when one speaks on claim accuracy, like IV./JG 27 in Greece and for ex II./JG 2 in Tunisia. On the other hand there were units which claims were quite accurate, for ex the claims of II./JG 51 against P-38s in Tunisia.

Juha

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

has anyone considered this was all part of the propaganda war?
all for german consumption at home where news of the war turning against the Nazis could be "lost" under stories of daring do and German superiority?

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

of course. but we must eliminate every other possibility first.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

What part of the single 38 lost in two days vs the 19 claimed isn't clear? We've got one other returning single engine after mechanical failure, not enemy action.

Damaged 38s were not falling out of the sky

Bartels didn't shoot down 7 38s in 2 days. Of this there is no doubt.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Yes, I'm sure propaganda played something to do with it. Also gaining promontions and fame with what comes with that, as they were like every other human. I'm not sure unit histories were going to give the damage reports other then major. Also in air combat if you make hits and they dive away, your not going to try to follow them down with other threats around you.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

who's to say the USAAF are 100% accurate and 100% complete. NOBODY can say for certain. not you, not me, not the USAAF nor the Germans. I'm not saying that he killed 7 in two days. maybe damaged or something. maybe all, maybe half, maybe none.

cheers.

P-38 losses southern Greece 15/17 November, 1943
 

Hi guys

So as far as is known the mission was flown by B-25 twin-engined bombers of the 340th BG, USAAF escorted by P-38 twin-engined fighters of the 1 FG and 82nd FG, USAAF. The 82nd FG claimed two victories and lost one aircraft to Flak. For their part IV./JG 27 claimed 15 victories and lost no fighters. III./JG 27 did lose one aircraft that day but in a crash-landing with no mention of aerial combat:

15 November 1943: Gefreiter Heinrich Pothmann of 8./JG 27 in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 160 032), crash-landing at Tatoi, 90%

Does any one have which were the units on the American side that were involved in the raid two days later? On that day the two Luftwaffe fighter units claimed nine victories whereas one B-25 twin-engined bomber was lost. Stab III./JG 27 lost two mechanics:

17 November 1943: Gefreiter Manfred Kleinert of Stab III./JG 27 killed in bombing at Kalamaki
17 November 1943: Gefreiter Otto Heidel of Stab III./JG 27 wounded in bombing at Kalamaki

IV./JG 27 lost one fighter in aerial combat:

17 November 1943: Leutnant Hans Hetzler of 12./JG 27 wounded in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 140 ...) in aerial combat 20 kilometers east of Äjina Insel, 100%

Oberst, I think that the simplest explanation is over-claiming on the part of the German fighter pilots. Over-claiming was rather commonplace during the war in spite of the attempts by the various air forces involved to set in place confirmation procedures. In regards to the Luftwaffe, I have the impression that the level of claim reliability often varied between units and even individual pilots within the units. Units that appear to have levels of claiming generally consistent with Allied losses include JG 26 and JG 51 while units with often poor reliability in this regard include JG 54 and especially JG 5. Note that Bartels flew with JG 5 before he was posted to IV./JG 27 and that furthermore this was a quite new unit having been formed in May 1943 so it possibly did not have the same number of experienced pilots as other units such as III./JG 27. I doubt that this level of over-claiming on the part of Bartels and Kirschner was an act of deliberate fraud but rather was done in good faith as compared to those who doubtlessly will use this incident to attempt to portray all German aces as liars and exaggerators while remaining silent about incidents of Allied over-claiming such as during the Guadalcanal campaign. We all have our favorite aces but we have to realize that they were humans and not infallible in their victory claims which were often made in very stressful conditions.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

thank you Leo

Gruß and Horrido!

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

No one is claiming anyone was 100 percent accurate. My concern is that you are now in a second thread looking for some missing information on the part of the 38 units instead of just accepting that the LW over claimed and then some on November 15 and 17.

If Bartels got anything, he got the one lost 38 that occurred over the 2 missions. But with 19 other claims, and the MACR saying it was lost to Flak, it makes it appear most likely he shot down nothing.

As for the 17th, it was the 82nd FG escorting B25s and they had no losses or damaged, claiming one Me 109 which appears to match up to the Luftwaffe loss that day.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Not all claims that were attributed to AAA by units on return, even with "eye witnesses" turn out to be true. I just finished reading about a Soviet bomber that the loss was attributed to flak. On the return of the the few returning crew members they were hit by flak but escaped only to be shot down by a nightfighter. Same with another case of an Il-2 (in daytime) that appears on Soviet records to flak but on closer examination a fighter of JG54 was making a claim same time, location and height.

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

Hello Leo
I agree completely on overclaiming, see my message # 10 and 16. One small clarification, at first JG 5’s claims were not so badly inflated, claim accuracy hovering around 50% up to and including summer 42 after which it began sliding downwards. Or so it seems to have been according the info available at the turn of millennium. I agree that in claim accuracy there seems to have been different “unit cultures” but IMHO in the end it was up to individual pilots, some were simply more reliable claimers than others for whatever reasons. And a notorious overclaimer could have been an excellent fighter pilot and a good leader.

Juha

P-38 losses southern Greece 15/17 November, 1943
 

Hi guys

Many thanks to Dan for the information regarding the P-38 twin-engined fighter unit that participated on the raid of 17 November 1943. It is my understanding that the B-25 twin-engined bombers on that mission were from the 321st BG and 340th BG, USAAF. Losses were one bomber to either Flak or fighters and another damaged to a considerable extent by either Flak or fighters. Nokose, I too believe that on occasion the cause of loss was recorded incorrectly for various reasons. For example, I have read that when Grislawski meet one of the surviving crew of the B-17 four-engined bomber that he claimed on 24 January 1944, the American was certain that he had been shot down by Flak and not fighters and in another instance that the pilot of the F-5 reconnaissance aircraft shot down by Buchner on 26 November 1944 initially believed that he too had been shot down by Flak. I recall that when I was researching a German fighter ace I came across information by a European researcher that this fellow was responsible for the downing of a certain B-17 four-engined bomber and not Flak as was the officially recorded cause. This researcher was interested in this particular bomber since it crashed near his home town and had been studying all he could find about it and had come to the conclusion that it was the Luftwaffe ace (I can not remember who it was, Höckner or Wickop or some other fellow) that was responsible for its loss. I am not stating that his conclusion was 100% correct but it does demonstrate that loss entries may have some errors and this can be said for all sides involved. However, I also feel that one must go with the officially recorded cause in all instances unless there is compelling evidence that shows this was not the case. Otherwise, one can easily be led astray by the biases that we all have and thus lose credibility as a researcher. Juha, many thanks for the point regarding the claim accuracy of JG 5. Most of the information that I have regarding this matter involves 1943 and 1944 so it was welcome to read your information. What little I have seen of the claim accuracy or lack thereof regarding JG 5 in 1942 is primarily focused on Müller. However, since there appears to be some differences between the victory claim lists compiled by the various authors such as Mombeek and Prein and some of the research on the Russian side appears to be somewhat biased more towards ridiculing the claims made it has been somewhat difficult to obtain a clear image of what was really going on on the Northern Front at that time. I also agree that because a fighter pilot was known to have been optimistic in his claims does not mean that he was a bad leader. Bader, Boyington and Lang are all now generally accepted to have been quite optimistic in their claims yet were inspiring and effective leaders of men in combat.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943
 

The strangest part of the November 15 1943 MACR statement was reflecting that no enemy fighters were encountered in the Eyewitness Statement regarding McClure. He was hit by flak, lost altitude and was lost from sight.

Crash site listed as Thebes ~ 40 miles from location of Bartels and Hackl's seven air to air claims.

I noted in the other forum that on April 24, 1944 Bartels was one of 9 Me 109 pilots claiming 10 P-51s destroyed around Munich. in a rough arc from south of Landshut to Walkraiburg/Simbach/St. Wolfgang to Taufkirchen Vils - ne, e and se of Munich - 8 were credited when three were lost. Two other 51's were lost in mid air collisions with Me 110s near Poing and one was lost west of Munich near Lake Wessling, possibly to 7./ZG26.

Bartels claimed two 'west of Mulhdorf' whereas one (Norman) was lost north north of Muhldorf and more closely matches a JG26 (Ayerle) claim for "west of Simbach".

Bartels Could be the shooter for Norman (355th FG) but probably not Hillman who went down southeast of Munich at Taufkirchen...who was flying Norman's wing. Hillman more closely matches JG 27 Rabentstein's 'se Munich' claim at 1400. OTOH, I have to check whether the MACR stated Taufkirchen or Taufkirchen Vils - if the latter then it is reasonable to link Bartels to the two 355th pilots who were together when last heard from.