crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Good afternoon,

I am trying to gather information on a German aircraft that crashed on 27 March 1944, during the USAF raid.

This aircraft crashed in Benejacq forest, between Pau and Lourdes (south West of France) Its pilot was killed and it was definitely a German aircraft.
JG101 was based in Pau, at that time.

Any information (A/C type, pilot's name, etc..) shall be welcome.

Thanks a lot

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

So I see JG 101 had several losses at the ground that day, but can´t find any loss in aerial combat, but there was several other combat losses in france that day, will see if one of the given crash places is in the area you mentioned.
khorat

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Thank you for trying, Khorat

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

I have the following losses from Fl.Pl. Pau on 27-Mar plus an FW from Jgr.West. Could that be the loss you're looking for?

Ar 68F, 1961, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 35%, H, , ,
Ar 96B-3, 5267, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 100%, H, , ,
Ar 96B-1, 1248, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 10%, H, , ,
Ju W 34, 1531, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 30%, H, , ,
Ar 68C, 1225, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 15%, H, , ,
Ar 68E, 1552, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 15%, H, , ,
Ar 68F, 1956, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 40%, H, , ,
Ar 96B-1, 4401, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 100%, H, , ,
Ar 96B-3, 4175, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 100%, H, , ,
Ar 96B-3, 4331, ./., , , , JG 101, , , SW+AE, , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, Menke, Fl.Pl. Pau, 80%, H, , ,
Ar 96B-1, 4404, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 100%, H, , ,
Ar 68F, 1607, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 100%, H, , ,
Ar 66C, 0026, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 20%, H, , ,
Ar 66C, 0949, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 20%, H, , ,
Ar 66C, 0939, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 15%, H, , ,
Ar 66C, 0058, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 100%, H, , ,
Bf 108B, 2025, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 40%, H, , ,
Ar 96B-3, 3462, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., WNr. 4362?, Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 100%, H, , ,
Ju 160, , ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 10%, H, , ,
Ar 96B-3, 5047, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 25%, H, , ,
Bf 109E-7, 2006, ./., , , , JG 101, , , , , 27-Mar-44, Bombenwurf., , Lfl.3/FR, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/778, Flzg.Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.112, , Fl.Pl. Pau, 10%, H, , ,

FW 190A-5, 5862, Schönrock, Fw. Hans-Udo, , , , JGr.West, , , , , 27-Mar-44, KIA due to Luftkampf., , FR, Rodeike, Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug, p.149, , La Croix, 100%, F, , ,

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

mmmm.. thank you very much, Jim, it looks like the last one should be the good one.

However, a couple of things are not clear to me: can you help ?

FW 190A-5, 5862, clear
Schönrock, Fw. Hans-Udo, , , , not clear: Schonrock is the family name and Hans Udo the first name ?
JGr.West, , , , , 27-Mar-44, KIA due to Luftkampf., , FR, clear
Rodeike, what does this word mean ?
Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug, p.149, is it the source ?(the name of a book?)
La Croix, 100%, clear
F, what does "F" mean ?


I will appreciate anybody able to bring some lights on the items hereabove and thanks again, Jim.

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

3 Parts from this aircraft and also a medal found on the same place:

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Hi Gilles,
thats my favorite too - Fw. Hans-Udo Schönrock (Hans-Udo first name), it mentioned in the Rodeike book about the Fw 190 at page 149, and also find in our loss database. F - I think it means Feindlug - combat mission, you will find F or H - H stand for non combat flight.

Kind regards
Michael

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

great, thanks Michael, & have a nice day.

GC

PS : attached two more parts from this A/C.

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Gilles,
The last photograph on the first batch seems to be a particular TALISMAN from the pilot...
Rodeike is the writer of the book, as Khorat answered.
Great discovery...thanks for sharing.
Adriano

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Thanks for your comment Adriano.

Here is the other side of the medal, and hereunder an explanation of it by a German friend. I thought it may be of interest to you. We also found several Germaon coins.

Best regards

Gilles

The owner of the medal was quite probably fond of mountain walking or climbing, or maybe his home was situated within the area of today´s Czech Republic;
The Riesengebirge (litterally: Giant Mountains) is a chain of mountains situated half-way between Prague and Bratislava. I assume the peaks of these mountains (of which the Schneekoppe [literally: Snowy Peak] is the highest one with 1605 metres) mark the borderline between Poland and the Czech Republic for some 80-100 kilometres.
Ruebezahl is a mythical spirit who takes the custody of the Riesengebirge, representing the natural, untouched and genuine characteristics of the area with his old age, his poor clothing, his long beard and his crutch, resembling a typical inhabitant of the area in times when his myth was generated.

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Bonjour Gilles,
Superbe histoire! Fantastic indeed...Have you tried to write to Bundesarchiv and obtain his military file? You can find where he was born and his previous postings, etc..With that you perhaps could try to locate the family.
By the way: any recorded fighter claims ( by American side ) matches this loss on the 27th March 1944? Or was he shot down by defensive fire from the bombers?
Amicalement,
Adriano

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Hi Adriano,

good questions & excellent ideas.

I would love to have more info about this event (USAF reports ?) and about the FW190 pilot (files, family), but to be honnest to you, I do not know how to proceed.

If anybody in the assistance knows how to do that and is willing to take a few minuts of his time to do that, I would be delighted.

Cheers to all.

Gilles

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Khorat is correct. In my db I list last name, first name for Flieger/pilot so that names sort in an easily searchable order. (Peter) Rodeike is the author of the FW 190 book and 'F' means Feindflug - combat sortie/sortie against the enemy, though it can be somewhat ambiguous because Feindflug doesn't necessarily mean that one met the enemy.

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Gilles,

Hans-Udo Schönrock, 3./JGr West, was born 10.12.1915 at Rastatt/Baden.

He was killed when crashing at La Coix d. Hins (?) near Bordeaux,
27.3.1944, 20:00 hrs. Cause was dogfight with anglo-american fighters.

His comrade Udo Wohlfeld was KIA at Blanenetfort the same day at 15:15 hrs, also fighting against fighterplanes.

Schönrocks wife Margret lived at Neuhaus/Elbe in 1944.

HTH

Carl

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Hi Guys,

thanks for your efforts which are really appreciated. However, desapointment is there..

This FW is not the one;

Thanks to Carl's precision, I did find "La Croix d'hins": as Carl mentions, it is close to Bordeaux, therefore far away from Benejacq/Tarbes.


So, I go back to square one: has anybody the record of a German fighter crashing in Benejacq forest (between Tarbes and Pau) on 27 March 1944.

I shall try to go locally and find more clues on field. I shall keep you posted.

Thanks again, and have a good day.

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Gilles,
I do have all USAAF claims for that date, however they do not link the type of aircraft shot down, neither the place and hour of combats.
May I suggest you to contact Frank Olynik, who do have a vast knowledge about USAAF WW2 claims ( he published books about all claims and American Fighter Aces ). He is a member of the Forum and maybe he can help you ( us ) to match this one...
I can send you ( tonight ) the american pilots who claimed at ETO on the 27th March 1944 ( Gabreski amongst them ).
Amicalement
Adriano

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Thanks for your advice Adriano,

I shall try alternate information sources in parallel and I shall also go on the crash site in the next days, in order to gather more info. After that, I shall contact Franck Olnick.

In the meantime, I look forward to your communication concerning the USAF kills (by PM ?).

I shall post tomorrow pictures of the burnt german coins that we found on site.

I shall indeed keep you posted of what I learn (or not !) .

Best regards

Gilles

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Hello Gilles,

I hope it works. Nice finds.

Best regards

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Thanks Clin, it did work very well.

But I can't find my bird: so, I'll go back on the place, try to check the date and try to gather more info.

All the best.

Gilles

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Gilles,
Clin A-78 was quick and more precise than I....his information do have the type, local and hour of each combat recorded on the ETO, on the 27th March 1944. My small list only have the names and number of victories. So...I do hope you will be able to find out now who shot down who...on the puzzle.
Very kind of yours A-78 to share that.
All the best and keep us informed...nice thread indeed...
Adriano

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

The Schönrock loss was the only recorded loss from a 'training' unit I had for that day, not that my list is anywhere near complete. I have two JG 2 losses for that day, but my knowledge of the geography of France is definitely lacking. Does anyone have the details for the Udo Wohlfeld loss?

Bf 109G-6, 110356, Stratmann, FhjOfw. Willi, , , 8., JG 2, , , , , 27-Mar-44, WIA due to Luftkampf. FSA., DKiG., FR, Ring, JG 2 loss list, p.22, , westlich Nantes, 100%, F, , ,
Bf 109G-6, 162018, Harnisch, Ltn. Wolfgang, , , 8., JG 2, , , RW+BS, , 27-Mar-44, WIA due to Luftkampf. FSA., , FR, Ring, JG 2 loss list, p.22, , Ancenis, 100%, F, , ,

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Hi Jim,

Ancenis is close to Nantes, so not at all in the Pau/Tarbes area;

Here are the coins found on site. Dated 1924.

Moving items...

Best regards.

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

more pictures of parts found.

FL20512-2 indicator can be Me109E or FW190A, right?

any idea on the other parts is welcome too.

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Hi guys,

it appears that the aircraft crashed during the night between the 27 and the 28th march, so it may be recorded the day after ie 28th March.

May I ask you (when you have some time) to have a look at your archives on the 28 march 1944 ?

thanks a lot and have a lovely sunday

GC.

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Gilles,
I found a Mosquito XIII ( serial HK425 from 96 Squadron ) for a Fw 190 at sea on the night of 27/28 March 1944...but it seems rather "out of the picture" here....The other Mosquito claims for that night are twins and over Germany,etc...This Fw 190 also may have come from SKG 10...so out of picture here.
Could the year of the coin ( 1924 ) give us a clue about the birth date of the airman?
Let's see...
Yours
Adriano

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Thanks for your efforts, Adriano.

year of the coin as an indication ? not sure it brings any clue: coins were circulating.

Now, I feel I definitely must find the actual answer, taking in consideration all the efforts provided by you all!

I may have some clues with a local elderly lady who has a part of the watch of the pilot, fragments of his glasses and other part of the aircraft.

I hope I shall be able to go there in a couple of weeks.

So, I keep you waiting but I assure that I shall let you know what I find.

All the best, & cheers;

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Hi Adriano, and Hi to the other readers too,

here is the latest news: the aircraft was an Arado96B3.

Look at the parts hereattached.

Pressure indicator, spinner portions, airframe parts, machine gun, all very carateristic.

So, we now have no doubt about the aircraft identity, we only have to find the date of the crash and the pilot name.

It clearly was beginning of 1944: if any of you has some information about a crashed AR96 Near Lourdes/Tarbes beginning 1944, I take it !

Thanks and have a nice friday.

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

6 3 44 2 JG101 Pontacq 7 km W Ossun A b, Nachtflug Bordw, Beschuß AR96B-3 964379 We22 100 x Wesser hans ofhr f

Rémi

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

This is the only possibility:
1944-03-06, 2./JG 101, Ar 96B-3, 964379, 22 weiße, Pontacq, 7 km westlich Ossun und 24 km südöstlich Pau, Absturz bei Nachtflug infolge Bordwaffenbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
Flugschüler Ofhr Wesser, Hans, tot
Grab: Berneuil/Frankreich, Block 4, Reihe 28, Grab 1497

Matti

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Thanks a thousand Remi and Matti,

A question: what do the following hereunder mean ?

"Absturz bei Nachtflug infolge Bordwaffenbeschuß"

"destruction during nichtflight following... ?? .. "

Now, if somebody has information about Hans Wesser or his family, I am interested (I would like to contact his family).

Have a good week-end.

GC

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Tir d'armes de bord

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

merci Remi;

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Salut Gilles,

i would have maybe a possible contact adress to the family.
You can reach me as usual via email.

Regards

Lino

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

I just sent a private mail sent to your attention, Lino.

I do wish you can get me in touch with his family:

it will be moving to remit to them the medal that was once in Hans Wesser hands, more than 60 years ago.

Thanks in advance,

Gilles

Crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

Re: crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes
 

hi everybody,

I have been able to find the whole story around this Ar96 kill 'thanks to you all !!) and it is really surprising.

I have written an article about it (in French but there is an English version attached).

If anybody is interested, send me a private message with your private email and I shall be glad to mail this article to you.

You should like it...

Gilles