Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Does anybody have a photo of these elusive machines? I believe its a Mtt-Reg build G-10. Just trying to determine the factory camouflage scheme. As always, thanks.

Bf 109 G-10 130 xxx Batch
 

Hello Oberst

One of the fighters of the 130 werknummer batch that comes to mind as being photographically well documented is Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 5" (W.Nr. 130 297) flown by recently deceased Oberfeldwebel Horst Petzschler (26 victories, EP) of 10./JG 51 to Sweden on 4 May 1945. There are several excellent photographs of this machine at http://www.forcedlandingcollection.s...136-Bf109.html. My information is that this werknummer block was built at Messerschmitt Regensburg as well. I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

I am such a fool, I forgot all about Herr Petzschler's W.Nr. 130 297. I assume this would be a typical camouflage scheme for Mtt-Reg machines in that batch. Thanks for information!

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Thanks Leo for your excellent link!

Oberst, here are those I know of_

Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 130 282 "Weisse 21", Hptm. Franz Wienhusen, Stab IV./JG 4, Rhein/Main, before 3 December 1944. Mombeek 2001, p. 54.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625342670036

Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 130 396, "Weisse 43", 1./NJG11, Fassberg, May 1945:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625342670036
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625342670036

Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 130 327 "Blaue 4", Oblt. Günther Grossjohann, Staka 8./JG 3, Garz, March 1945. Prien and Stemmer 1996, p. 390.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625342670036

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Hello Marc,

Thanks for those links! "Blaue 4" is a very good picture, the camouflage scheme is almost identical to W.Nr.130 297. "Weisse 43" is the High Altitude scheme, nice machine. I fairly certain "Weisse 21" is not an Mtt-Reg built machine.. although I could be wrong. Thanks again!

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Were WNr 130xxx series a/c built in any other factory?

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

according to Prein:

130000 – 130500 ~ Mtt-Regensburg G-10
150700 – 151000 ~ Erla G-10
151500 – 152000 ~ Erla G-10
490000 – 490800 ~ Erla G-10 - many were fitted with DB 605/AS
491000 – 491600 ~ Erla G-10
610300 – 610600 ~ WNF G-10
610900 – 611000 ~ WNF G-10
611900 – 612000 ~ WNF G-10
612700 – 613000 ~ WNF G-10
613000 – 613300 ~ WNF G-10
770000 – 770400 ~ WNF G-10
770900 – 771000 ~ WNF G-10
771000 – 771200 ~ WNF G-10

'Weisse 21' looks to be a Erla built machine. maybe W.Nr. 150 782?

Bf 109 G-10 130 xxx Batch
 

Hi guys

Perhaps I should mention that Claes Sundin has included a profile of Bf 109 G-10 "White 21" (W.Nr. 130 282) on page 97 of Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft in Profile. I realize that color profiles are often quite subjective but Sundin along with Tullis is the highest regarded artist involved in this subject. I agree that the camouflage is quite different from the machine flown by Petzschler but we have no way of knowing if either or both of these had their factory delivered finish over-painted by the unit they were delivered to at some point. If it is true that Bf 109 G-10 "Blue 4" (W.Nr. 130 327) is very similar to the JG 51 aircraft then perhaps the JG 4 machine was repainted at some point.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Hello Leo,

Excellent point! The JG 4 machine could have very well been rebuilt/repainted at one of the various reman-depots. I was looking at a Mtt-Reg G-10 from (?)./JG 27 ( source: internet ) that also has a very simular scheme to W.Nr. 130 327 & 130 297. This one was W.Nr. 130 355 I believe. I'm trying to determine the most likely scheme for Heinrich Bartels W.Nr. 130 359.

Bf 109 G-10 130 xxx Batch
 

Hello Oberst

I was looking up about the Bf 109 G-10 in The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Part 2 by Lynn Ritger and here are several notes that you may find interesting in case that you are unaware of them. The Bf 109 G-10 was an attempt to produce a fighter with performance approaching that of the Bf 109 K-4 by attaching the DB 605 D to existing Bf 109 G-series airframes awaiting re-manufacture at repair centers. However, at least one batch of these aircraft were new builds by WNF at Diana. The fighters built by Messerschmitt at Regensburg can be identified by having the streamlined cowling bulge terminating nearly in line with the windscreen aft edge. They were fitted with standard size 660x160 millimeter main wheels and thus small wing bulges and usually the extended tail wheel oleo as well. I hope that you find this useful.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Hello Leo,

Yes the Bf 109G-10 came with either the Type 100 or 110 cowl. Also, some in the 490 000 - 490 800 Erla batch also used the small mains & long tail wheel, along with 130000 – 130500 Messerschmitt-Regensburg G-10's. Do you have a source for G-10's that flew with JG 27? I have only a couple, the one previously mentioned in post #9 and Bf 109G-10/AS W.Nr. 'yellow 24' of 6./JG 27, an Erla Built machine with a highly modified camouflage scheme. Thanks for the added information by the way.

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

I'm sorry to intervene, but there are a lot of old myths and wrong facts that (in complete good faith) have surfaced in this thread about the Bf 109G-10.

Concerning the listings of Werke Nummern published several years ago by Prien in his otherwise excellent book, very little was known at the time about the G-10s produced by Erla, so at the time it was thought that their external look was due to the use of DB 605AS engines instead of "D" ones...

Documents and material emerged since then have allowed to ascertain that all the G-10 built by Erla (apart from a mere 50) were equipped with the DB 605D engine and that the "look" was in reality due to Erla's experimental redesign of the nose section.

Concerning instead what apparently reported in Lynn Ritger's book, here too we have some old "myths" as the one seeing the G-10 as an "Arlequin" version, spread over.

Excellent researchers like Charles Bavaroise and the one posting here as "Rasmussen" have studied late Bf 109 production for decades and have discovered material and documents proving beyond doubts that - for instance - the fuselages used by Erla in the G-10 production were of new build, as evidenced by the serials attached to them (not Werke Nummern, but production serials). Personally I have been able to see one of such listings.

That story about old Bf 109s "recycled" as G-10s has been debunked long since, but the fact that it still goes to print and circulates (as well as the non-existing "G-10/AS" versions still lingering around), certainly gives food for thought...

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

No need to appologies, thanks for posting further information. I know that it wasn't officially designated as a Bf 109G-10/AS. I also know that G-10 were brand new airframes, even though Erla called it a 'bastard aircraft' or something simular. maybe thats where the confusion started?

Bf 109 G-10 130 xxx Batch
 

Hi guys

Many thanks to D'Amico for correcting the error included in the reference that I mentioned regarding that the Bf 109 G-10 sub-type were rebuilds of earlier fuselages. I will take this opportunity to ask him if the inclusion of Bf 109 G-10/AS fighters in such references as the loss list included in the Prien JG 1/JG 11 volume are incorrect? The best known example would probably be:

24 December 1944: Hauptmann Erich Woitke, Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 1, killed in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Grey 20" (W.Nr. 490 723) in aerial combat with Spitfire fighters, Aachen area, 100%

Or might these be examples of the few Erla built machines that were fitted with the DB 605 AS engine? Regarding Bf 109 G-10 fighters that flew with JG 27 I do have access to a lost list of this unit in which this sub-type is mentioned. Any corrections to existing errors is gratefully accepted.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Mr. Etgen,

being unable to have access to the original reference of the loss quoted, I can only guess that at the time of publication of the cited work (1993-1995) the area sorrounding the Erla-built G-10 being still somewhat murky, so that it could have been assumed by the authors that all the G-10s in that production batch were "G-10/AS" and the loss edited accordingly.

Of course there is also the possibility that in the original document the loss was listed as such, although I personally never saw such a definition on original Luftwaffe papers...

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Hello Guys,

good old G-10/AS! A never ending story. He my two cents:

Hptm. Erich Woitkes aircraft was reported like Bf 109 G-14 (!), WNr. 490723 in his NVM, clearly an error by the clerc.

JG 27 reported lots of G-6/AS and G-14/AS, but only regular G-10s, no G-10/AS at all.

It was technically possible to fit a DB605 AS engine to an airframe instead of the DB605 D. I assume, this was done at the flying units sometimes, as we do have reports of Bf 109 G-10s with AS-engines at NAGr. 14 und also on Italian a/c captured at the end of the war. NAGr. 14s aircraft had different flying times for engines and airframes, a hint, that the engine was changed somewhen. From a pure administrative point of view this aircraft may indeed be called "G-10/AS"!

As for the Erla G-10s with AS-engines we should wait for Rasmussen, who will enlight us with his knowlegde on Leipzigs production-plans. As far as I remember, there were very few Erla G-10 equipped with AS-engines, perhaps due to a shortage in D-engines? Rasmussen can tell us, whether this was done at the producer or sometimes later.

And at last: III./JG 300 did report Bf 109 G-10/ASM in its NVM late December 44 and early 1945 and this is the only time I came across a G-10/AS in an original German document. The Werknummern all were of Erla-production (490.216, 490.224, 490.299, 490.323 and 490.438). The reports of this Gruppe are remarkably detailed and include "regular" G-10s as much as G-14/AS and G-14s spread between those G-10/AS. So IMHO no typing error. Perhaps Rasmussen can figure out the exact production time of this a/c.

HTH

Carl

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

thanks a great 2 cents worth of opinion, many thanks!

Leo, the JG 27 lost list for G-10's would be great to see. Please post them!

Bf 109 G-10 130 xxx Batch
 

Hi guys

Many thanks for the information posted earlier. So it appears that the loss list entry for Woitke might be correct and that he possibly was flying one of the very few DB 605 AS powered Bf 109 G-10 fighters on his final mission. The only way to make sure would be to come across a list of Erla production plans that would specify which aircraft received which engine if such exists. Oberst, here are the losses of Bf 109 G-10 fighters suffered by 15./JG 27. I hope that you find this useful for your purposes.

26 November 1944: Unteroffizier Jakob Bäuerle of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 (W.Nr. 490 407) in aerial combat, crashed in Lastrup/Vechta area, 100%

5 December 1944: Feldwebel Rudolf Schiller of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 (W.Nr. 490 682) in aerial combat, crashed in Gladbeck area, 100%

23 December 1944: Oberfeldwebel Heinrich Bartels of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 13" (W.Nr. 130 359) in aerial combat with P-47 fighter, crashed at Villip near Bad Godesberg, 100%

25 December 1944: Unteroffizier Franz Schmitt of 15./JG 27, wounded in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 8" (W.Nr. 490 188) in aerial combat, unknown location, 100%

27 December 1944: Oberfähnrich Rolf Brandt of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 2" (W.Nr. 490 741) in aerial combat, unknown location, 100%

29 December 1944: Fähnrich Ferdinand Miebach of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Black 10" (W.Nr. 490 699) in aerial combat, crashed near Altstätte, 100%

11 February 1945: Oberfähnrich Werner Müller of 15./JG 27, injured in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 3" (W.Nr. 490 210), somersaulted while landing at Münster-Handorf, 60%

22 February 1945: Hauptmann Günther Grapp, Staffelkapitän of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 14" (W.Nr. 130 366) in aerial combat, crashed north of Amelsbüren, 100%

25 February 1945: Leutnant Rolf Berendt of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 11" (W.Nr. 491 376) in aerial combat in Vörden area, 100%

25 February 1945: Unteroffizier Herbert Kronis of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 6" (W.Nr. 130 387) in aerial combat, crashed at Thiene near Hesepe, 100%

19 March 1945: Oberleutnant Josef Sohlbach of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 15" in aerial combat with P-51 fighters near Vörden, 100%

Note that the 29 December 1944 incident involved an aircraft of 14./JG 27.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Bf 109 G-10 130 xxx Batch
 

Unfortunately Erla never used the designation "G-10/AS" official --- in all documents I ever saw the machines were named "G-10" or "G-10/R6" (the known G-10 with DB 605AS included). I'd guess the designation "G-10/AS" was used on unit level only - from time to time (if the machine had another engine than an DB 605D).

To get certain informations is difficult because the factory archive got some direct hits during the raids in 1943 - 1945. The most of surviving documents was destroyed after the war --- after the liquidation of the firm. They had other problems to safe "old" documents.

Regarding the other points I have to check the documents again.

Best regards
Rasmussen

Bf 109 G-10 130 xxx Batch
 

Hello Rasmussen

Many thanks for your information. It therefore appears that only through the unit reports can it be possible to determine if a Bf 109 G-10 was one of the AS powered types or not. In case that anyone would be interested here are the Bf 109 G-10/AS included in the JG 1 loss list apart from Woitke:

5 December 1944: Oberfähnrich Hans-Werner Kroll of 12./JG 1, killed in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 3" (W.Nr. 490 625) in aerial combat with P-51 fighters, crashed near Zehdenick/Pommern, 100%

17 December 1944: Leutnant Ottokar Henning of 12./JG 1, injured in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 4" (W.Nr. 490 740) in crash on take-off at Anklam, 100%

25 December 1944: Leutnant Hans-Adolf Halbey of 12./JG 1, wounded in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 5" (W.Nr. 490 663) in aerial combat, crashed near Nettersheim, bailed out, 100%

25 December 1944: Oberfeldwebel Otto Soetbeer of 12./JG 1, wounded in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 2" (W.Nr. 490 653) in aerial combat with four-engined bomber in Lüttich area, 100%

25 December 1944: Leutnant Jakob Schneider of 12./JG 1, killed in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 6" (W.Nr. 490 665) in aerial combat with four-engined bomber in Lüttich area, 100%

Note that all are stated to have flown with 12./JG 1 apart of the Woitke machine which was on strength with the Gruppenstab. It would be interesting to determine if indeed these were the rare version that they are purported to be.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Hello guys,

unfortunately there might be some problems with G10/AS at Jagdgeschwader 1. All G-10 reported in III./JG 1 NVM are regular Erla G-10 only, no /AS or /R6.

There are two mistakes in the reports, one is Woitkes loss in a G14. Interestingly Woitkes loss was not reported from III. Gruppe, but from the Geschwader itself. We can assume, that the Geschwder did not own the Lebenslaufakte of the a/c. This is perhaps the reason for misinterpreting a G10 as a G-14 (IMHO no hint for a G10/AS).

The other error ist the loss of a G10, WNr. 785.080, which actually was a G14/AS. It crashed on a delivery flight from Regensburg to Rheine. And here we also can assume, that the Lebenslaufakte had not yet arrived at the Gruppe.

So we still have only that handfull of G10/AS at III./JG 300. They all are from a early batch of G10s with acceptance flight between 20. Oct. and
1. Dec. 1944.

Carl

Bf 109 G-10 130 xxx Batch
 

Hello Carl

Many thanks for your patience and explanations regarding the JG 1 aircraft. It would thus appear that the most reasonable position to take with these purported Bf 109 G-10/AS fighters is that they were normal DB 605 D powered aircraft and that the loss list in the volume cited reflects the then current belief at the time of publication that all Erla built Bf 109 G-10 fighters were DB 605 AS powered. I will admit that this topic was something I always wished to have discussed with those knowledgeable in the field of late war Bf 109 fighters. Many thanks to you and D'Amico as well as Rasmussen for all your help.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Leo,

Thanks for posting the JG 27 G-10 loss information. Most appreciated! Interesting that 15./JG 27 used a mix of Mtt-Reg and Erla (early) batches of Bf 109G-10's.

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Was wondering if anybody has any photos of Bartels G-10 after it was found in 1964. Would be most appreciated.

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Dears,

I looking for more detais like photos of similar aircrafts photos from the same batch of Bf109 G-10 with Werk Numer -'' ... -- 490000 – 490800 ~ Erla G-10 - many were fitted with DB 605/AS. ....'
First serie of Bf109G-10 Erla with Werk Nr.: 490130-490399 was sent to units in Sep.-Oct.1944.
For me is interesting aricraft with Werk Numer: 490362 which belong to Haupt: Günter Rabeler from 2./JG3 (Stab I) (info.1945) - so moust similar numbers from Erla can be possible similar (?) - it seems to me.

Is here Charles Bavaroise the same from link beside ? ( from: http://www.lwag.org/forums/archive/i...hp/t-1249.html )

If this person is still here on the FORUM - I would like to ask about contact on prive e-mail:
Huball25@poczta.fm

Maybe some body of You have list some of aircrafts from Erla with batch: 490130---490399 ???
To which units was sent each aircraft , pilots , etc....

Best regards,
Kris

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Kris, forgive me if I may look nitpicking, but the quote you are making was from a post at the start of this thread, one year ago.

It seemed to me that during the rest of the thread we had cleared that such a statement wasn't correct. In reality, from what can be ascertained from Erla sources, only about fifty G-10s received the DB 605AS on the production line, due to shortages of the supply of DB 605D.

Thus, in my view (and not only mine), the statement quoted is incorrect, and quoting it looks incorrect as well.

I know, it still looks nitpicking, but that's how inaccurate info does spread, IMHO.

Re: Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch
 

Ok, I just opended new post.
(With ref. to this one)