German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dears

My team found near Stettin wrack of Fw-190 or Bf-109 .
We think that probably will be Bf-109 by the way we think that pilot could be from:

JG-3 Jagdgeschwader 3 - http://www.cieldegloire.com/jg_003j.php
or
SG-1 Schlachtgeschwader 1 (Stettin-Altdamm) - http://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/Sch...chwader-1.html


Fighter was crashed beetwen (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) - present in Poland.

First of all me must id type of aircraft (full details) - was a lot of versions for: FW-190 as here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190 or Bf-109 http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109)
So it is not so easy.

After first studies we have some hypothesis:
It probably could be ( acc. to photo with name : Bock):

Bock, Hans Ofw IV(Sturm)/JG-3 Fw 190A-8 Werk # 682940 (lost 2/19/45) Fighter Operational Clasp MIA 19 February, 1945, cause and location not reported

"... In February 1945, IV./JG 3 moved to the Eastern Front, undertaking freie-Jagd and ground attack missions on the Oder front. ..."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_3


IV. Gruppe:
Gruppenkommandeure:

• Maj Erwin Bacsila, 5.1.45 - 17.2.45
• Olt Oskar Romm, 17.2.45 - 25.4.45

Formed 1.6.43 in Neubiberg. On 15.4.44 became IV. (Sturm)/JG3

25.1.45 - 6.2.45 Stargard
Fw 190A6.2.45 - 25.4.45 Prenzlau
Fw 190Ahttp://www.feldgrau.com/JG3.htm

Here is first info to our mystery:

http://files.homepagemodules.de/b208...359p1176n5.jpg

and search by "Bock" on the list:

http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...anPilotsB.html

By the way in our area KIA a lot of German pilots from JG3, here is list:
http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg3.html

The same day also KIA another pilot from JG3:

19/02/45 Ofw. Hans Kleinchen 15./JG 3 Fw 190 A-8 (739152) Unknown reason, area of Pyritz / Stargard

For photos from wrack see here:

http://208090.homepagemodules.de/t35...h-code-Fl.html

Best regards,

KrisJG3

Of course pilot name is not confirmed , yet !!!!!

Maybe somebody of you can help us ?

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

It is not Fw190...the parachute is not the type the pilots wore....so it would probably be an Me109...

Mike

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dear Mike,

As I know JG3 in the half of 1944 changed some aircrafts from Bf109 onto FW190 so they could use in 1945 the parachute equipment on the FW190 A8.

Can anybody confirm this fact ?

Look here:
http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg3.html

on the list from pilots:

25/12/44 Uffz. Karl-Heinz Nieman 14.Sturm/JG 3 Fw 190 A-8/R are mixed aircrafts and after


"15/03/45 Fw. Werner Martin Stab IV./JG 3 Fw 190 D-9 (211147) "

are only shot down FW190 , before Bf109.

In the end of II WW pilots could use on the FW the parachute equipment from Bf aircrafts.

As we see JG3 received in the half of 1944 new model of:

"..Flying modified Fw 190A-R8's with extra armour and wing-mounted 30mm MK-108 cannons, IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 became both renowned with the Lufwaffe and feared by the USAAF bomber crews. Oblt. Werner Gerth, Staffelkapitän 14./JG 3, was shot down 11 times and was finally killed when his parachute failed to open after ramming a B-17 (his 27th claim). Due to their added weight (some 400 lbs) and lack of speed, the Sturmböcke aircraft had to be escorted by conventional fighters. ..."

Please check also here:
http://www.cieldegloire.com/jg_003.php
info. for : 10./JG 3

26.1.44 - 26.2.44 Venlo Bf 109G
26.2.44 - 7.6.44 Salzwedel Bf 109G, Fw 190A
8.6.44 - 13.6.44 Dreux Fw 190A


and also:
http://www.combatsim.com/htm/oct99/sturm1.htm
http://www.combatsim.com/htm/oct99/sturm2.htm

and more:

"...By the end of April it had been decided to disband the Sturmstaffel, and to fold its pilots and aircraft in to IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 to set up the first Sturmgruppe, which would be fully equipped with the Fw 190.
Simply the heavily armored A-6, A-7..........very very few of these and the A-8/R2 and R8 were called Sturmjäger especially the A-8 variants. The other name was for a single aircraft called Sturmböck, more than one is Sturmböcke.

At first and for most of the career any A-6 and A-7 with the outboard 30mm's were called A-6/MK or A-6/R2 and the A-7/MK or R2 variants. For the A-8/R2 the first a/c had the upper 13mm machine guns in the cowling and then they were removed but there were some aerodynamic problems with open upper chutes so a new fairing was developed to counter the problem. The Variant was known as the R2 till in November-December 1944 the new standard sturm FW 190 coming off the lines were called A-8/R8's. They had the fairings on the cowlings as standard. In any case till the month of January 1945 you could heavy armed Focke-Wulf Sturm machines even with the upper 13mm's still installed, as well as the four 20mm and 13mms on the usually fitted A-8. Some of the Sturm pilots preferred no armor or extra 30mm canon so they could have better handling properties as well as take on the US P-51 escorts much easier.

Sturmjäger or Sturmböck was one and the same for the A-6 to A-8 variants. The A-7 was so rare I would not even call it that as it was distributed to other units. Sturmstaffel 1 was broken up into IV.Sturm/JG 3 on May 10, 1944. ..."

Source: http://www.germanaircraftwwii.com/bl...2-sturmjaeger/

Please remember that Stettin and Hydrikwerke from Politz was very often bombed by B17 (in 1944/45) so pilots from here needed the best version of aircrafts like new FW190 A-8/R2

Mike if as you write that parachutes as here below was used in Bf109:

http://files.homepagemodules.de/b208...359p1176n8.jpg
http://files.homepagemodules.de/b208...359p1176n1.jpg
http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum24/unfl.jpg
http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum24/3078.jpg

so how looks parachute for FW190 ?

Maybe you have right but can anybode from experts say something more ? Have somebody copy of Flugbuch with pilot Hans Bock from 1944/1945 year ?
Probably this document belong to him: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_...k_KWinkler.jpg

We are professional team ( http://pomorze1945.com/?co=&lang=EN ) and we trying id type of wrack and name of pilot - we are almost soure that pilot was killed there - for example see part of paraschute - can not left aircraft without this equipment. One of brackets was broken during crash - as view from photo: http://files.homepagemodules.de/b208...359p1176n8.jpg

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

bock doesnt have to be a name. could also be the place designated to jack up the plane (auf bocken)

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Yes, but first of all we have take into consideration all options.
For us above mentioned option is one of moust imortant.

So please try to help us.

So we would like to ask about contact with person which could have Flugbuch of Hans Bock. or all pilots JG3 from Prenzlau.

Yes we know it can be not possible after so long time but .... .:)
We think that somebody could find during IIWW fresh wrack after as it was crashed and also pilot's Soldbuch and rewrite on the small piece of wrack pilot name "Bock".

But it is only one of options.

We almost sure come back to this place and we will search engine from wrack maybe it help us to find serial number of engine.

Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dears ,

I"m looking for: LW Loss Report, Microfilm #12

have somebody of you this film ?

Probably from German Records (OKL- OberkommandoderLuftwaffe)
I have info. that in this film is information about Hans Bock.- maybe somebody could check it ?

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

19.2.45, Fw 190 A8, W.Nr. 682940, destroyed 100%, reason/location unknown, Uffz. Herbert Bock - MIA

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

- are you sure Herebert not Hans ?

Look here:

Bock, Hans Ofw IV(Sturm)/JG-3 Fw 190A-8 Werk # 682940 (lost 2/19/45) Fighter Operational Clasp MIA 19 February, 1945, cause and location not reported. Source: http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...anPilotsB.html

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

KrisJG3,

The name is Uffz. Hermann Bock, born 20.03.1924. Not Herbert and not Hans. I believe he belonged to 15. Staffel.

I also believe it is better to post more pictures from the wreckage here so that specialists could try to identify type and sub-type in stead of making all kinds of assumptions on that marking saying "bock".....

J.

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Loss list says "Herbert" but everyone knows that these documents are not accurate...

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Hi,

The book about the IV. Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 3 by Jochen Prien has the following for Hermann Bock's loss:

Uffz. Hermann Bock of 15./J.G. 3 was killed on a mission, cause unknown, in the area of Pyritz/Stargard, while flying FW 190 A-8/R2 W.Nr 682 940 'Yellow 5 + '

Having said that, I agree entirely with John: much more evidence is needed before you can link this aircraft wreck with the loss of Hermann Bock.


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dear Friends ,

First of all please have a look on the our film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMU7MTnvIvs

here is team from VBGO Germany and some of our team from Poland.

All people which can help us please visit our web side:

http://pomorze1945.com/?co=&lang=EN

and please help us writting on the formal e-mail:

info@pomorze1945.com

Thanks in advance,

Krzysztof

P.s.:
Yes we know that to small pictures but now we are waiting for all needed documents which help us check this place formally.

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

It seems to me that the word Bock in pencil on a piece of the aircraft wreckage (presumably ?) is most unlikely to be associated with the name of the pilot. If a piece of personal equipment then possibly, yes.

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

By the way, here is list of pilots from our area around Stettin:






19/02/45 Ofw. Hans Kleinchen 15./JG 3 Fw 190 A-8 (739152) Unknown reason,area of Pyritz / Stargard
03/03/45 Gefr. Nettelmeier 2./JG 3 Bf 109 G- Reason and place unknown 03/03/45 Lt. Gerhard Büker 8./JG 3 Bf 109 G-10 (490151) Blue 12 + - Unknown reason,area of Freienwalde
03/03/45 Ofhr. Josef Zeiner 13./JG 3 Fw 190 A-8/R2 (680431) White 9 Jabo raid, unknown reason, area of Pyritz / Stargard
03/03/45 Fw. Werner Schanz 14./JG 3 Fw 190 A-8/R2 (682921) Black 10 Jabo raid, unknown reason, area of Pyritz / Stargard
05/03/45 Uffz. Schiefenhauer I./JG 3 Bf 109 G-14/AS Reason and place unknown
05/03/45 Gefr. Heinz Abitz 7./JG 3 Bf 109 G-14/AS (787486) Yellow 1 + - During a straffing, area of Naugard
05/03/45 Uffz. Ewald Czepa 12./JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 (330432) Blue 2 + | Combat with P-39S, W. Madüsee (area of Stargard)
09/03/45 Ofhr. Helmut Moll 11./JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 (332546) Yellow 4 + | Combat with LaGG-5, 15 km SE. Stettin
15/03/45 Fw. Werner Martin Stab IV./JG 3 Fw 190 D-9 (211147) Combat, area of Stettin (near Altdamm)
--/03/45 Fw. Josef Kroisenbrunner 14./JG 3 Fw 190 Unknown reason, area of Stettin
--/03/45 Oblt. Wolfgang Habrich 15./JG 3 Fw 190 Unknown reason,area of Stettin
--/03/45 Obgfr. Josef Kellner 15./JG 3 Fw 190 Unknown reason, area of Stettin
18/04/45 Lt. Baron 11./JG 3 — —
20/04/45 Uffz. Hans Anders 14./JG 3 Fw 190 Combat with fighter
20/04/45 Uffz. Robert Canaris 14./JG 3 Fw 190 Reason and place unknown

Source: http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg3.html

As you see list is long and not updated so in this case H. Bock not exist on the above list.
Maybe sombody can add missing pilots.


By the way we had also another pilot with name 'Bock' :

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/0...2-and-8r8.html

"...Uffz. Peter Bock of 8./JG300 in front of his 'schwarze 2' Fw 190 A-8/R2 seen in early 1945. Note the Panzerplatte side armour, the outer wing Mk 108 cannon bulges and the armoured windshield quarter pane. Bock claimed a P-51 on 14 February 1945 over the Chemnitz-Leipzig-Dresden sector ..."

and

"... It should of course be born in mind that the 'R2' was the designation introducing the 'definitive' Sturm variant which entered service with IV.(Sturm)/ JG 3 during April/May 1944 when Sturmstaffel 1 was incorporated into the unit as 11./JG 3. II./JG 300 became a 'Sturmgruppe' some time in July 1944 ( the exact date is not known) while II./JG4 was not established until late July/ early August 1944 ..."

Look here and compare with link above :

http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/pilots07.htm

"...
Although over 300 Me 163B's were produced (including a few Me 163-Cs with increased fuel), only 9 confirmed air victories were credited to JG 400 by the end of the war, for 14 Komets lost from all causes ( mainly crashes and accidents).
I./JG 400 was disbanded at Brandis in April 1945, while II. Gruppe disbanded at Husum. ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_400


see also this:


" ... Secondly, it is clear that Hauptmann Frömert was with the II. Gruppe of JG400. After training at Brandis, he went to Stargard, and then took part in the many relocations of II./JG400, to Bad Zwischenahn, Nordholz and finally Husum. Thirdly, the log identifies four code colors used on Komets: white, yellow, red and green. Red and green codes are quite rare it seems, the only other source listing them is Ransom's book about Brandis. ..."

http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/pilots07.htm

it is very interesting that pilot Hauptmann Frömert - ... went to Stargard, and then took part in the many relocations of II./JG400
they could fly here together near Stargard and Altdamm with Uffz. Peter Bock of 8./JG300 could be here in Pommeren in 1945 ????? IS it possible ?

Look pos. from 343:
http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/pilots09.htm

also:

Lfd.
Nr. des
Fluges Führer Begleiter Muster Zu-
lassungs-
Nr. Flug Bemerkungen Zweck des Fluges Abflug Landung Flugdauer Ort Tag Tageszeit Ort Tag Tageszeit 341 Hptm Frömert Me110 weiße "8" Platzflug Stargard 23.12 10.45 Stargard 23.12 11:35 50' Tanken geflogen! 2 - " - " " Schleppflug " 25.12 11.35 " 25.12 12.15 40' Me163 = rote "8" 343 - " - Bf 108 "92" Überführung " 2.2.45 14.30 Altdamm 2.2.45 14.50 20' 4 - " - Hptm. Helwig Me110 D5+XZ Überführung Altdamm 4.2. 16.10 Neubrandenburg 4.2. 17.05 55'

http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163...e/pilot017.jpg

or look last table here:

http://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/pilots07.htm


why? -- .. Both disbanded at Husum

Please see how much pilots there was with name 'Bock':

http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...anPilotsB.html
but only one or to could be at our area near Stettin/Altdam/Stargard.

so in this case we will back with more pictures of wrack next time.

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dears ,

It seems to me "big step to forward in our puzzles (but needed Your help)" | we need to know more detail about pilot:
MIA on: 03/03/45 Gefr. Nettelmeier from 2./JG 3 Bf 109 G- Reason and place unknown ?????

The same day , (have a look info. about pilot Brandt from 2./JG3):

"...On 22 January 1945,2./JG 3 was relocated to Stettin-Altdamm for operations over the Eastern front. The primary mission of the unit was low-level attacks in support of the German army in the Bromberg/Posen area. Additionally, escort missions for Fw 190 ground-attack and Ju 87 anti-tank aircraft were flown. On 10 February, the unit relocated to Pinnow near Kolberg in Pomerania. On 3 March 1945, Brandt destroyed 3 Russian tanks with bombs, strafed and set on fire 20 trucks and shot down two Russian Pe-2 twin-engine bombers and a LaGG-3 fighter. However, he was again shot down and wounded in aerial combat with a Russian Il-2 Sturmovik ground attack aircraft. He successfully managed a belly landing in his damaged Bf 109 G-14 (W.Nr. 464 278) near Augustwalde. Following the dissolution of I./JG 3 on 23 March 1945, Brandt was appointed Staffelkapitän of 7./JG 3. He held the post until the end of the war. Brandt died of complications from the wounds he received during the war on 28 January 1977 at Bottrop.... "

See both sources:
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/brandt.html

http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg3.html


Have somebody of you Flugbuch (or info.) for both pilots from 2./JG3 and can compare/check if they were on the same mission on 3 March 1945 around area of Stettin on the same aircrafts Bf109G ? You can contact with me on prive box too. (we need your support if you have sources, info. , ect...).
For collegues from U.S.A. can you check it at US archives ? It seems that some documents of JG3 could be there ?
I"m sure that chronicle book of JG3 exist but where is available ?

Best regards,
Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dears,

Please help at identyfication typ of Bf 109 "?" for following plate - probably from VDM reductor used in engine DB 605:

Here info from plate:
Gerät-Nr.: 9-13005 C-7
Änderungen : 11
Werk Nr.: 11029
Herstelle: 0 m

From following post (source): http://reibert.info/forum/showthread.php?t=75860&page=4

we can read :

".... VDM для DB 605 А-С это 9-13005 С или 9-13005 С-4
= typical serial numbers for reductor VDM for engines DB 605 A-C was: 9-13005 C or 9-13005 C-4 ...."

but what about number: 9-13005 C-7 ??????Is it typical reductor number used for Bf-109 "G" or "K" ?????

More about DB 605:
http://w1.1861.telia.com/~u186104874/db605.htm

Here is also some info:DB605A -> Bf109G-6.
DB605AM -> Bf109G-6(MW50) и Bf109G-14.
DB605AS -> Bf109G-6/AS.
DB605ASM -> Bf109G-14/AS.
DB605DB i DC -> Bf109G-10.
DB605ASB i ASC -> Bf109G-14/AS.

This is first important detail from crashed German aircraft - we think in period Feb./March 1945.

If somebody have this book :
http://reibert.info/forum/attachment...4&d=1323152784
can I ask you to check ?


Best regards,

Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Kris,

Is the following loss known to your team 19-2-45 area of Stargard Bf 109 K-4 yellow 1 332503 of 11/JG 3 in combat with Airacobra Fw. Heinz Bastian missing changed to killed,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Brian - I must consult with collegues from team.
But Small update to information from reductor plate:

Have to be correct:

Gerät-Nr.: 9-13005 C-7
Änderungen : 11
Werk Nr.: 11029
Herstelle: bm

where "bm"- mean:
bm - AEG-Allgemeine Elektrizitaets-Gesellschaft, Abeteilung Zaehlerfabrik, Berlin

My question is:
For which type of Bf 109 "?" was used this type of reductor (Gerät-Nr.: 9-13005 C-7) to main engine DB 605 "?"
We have to know correct type of Bf109 for contact with WaSt Berlin. For sure on the place was KIA German pilot.

(New info. soon - I need a lot of time to clean details from wrack).

Have you access to following books and could you check this information ?

• Mermet, Jean-Claude. Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-1 through K-4. Engines and Fittings. Marnaz, France: Jean Claude Mermet SA, 1999.
• Messerschmitt AG. Messerschmitt Bf 109G; technisch Kompendium, Handbücher, Ersatztelliste, Bewaffnung Bedienungsvorschrift/Fl, Bordfunkanlage, Lehrbildreihe; 1942/1944. [Elektronische Resource] (Reprint) Ludwigsburg, Germany: Luftfahrt-Archiv, 2006. ISBN 3-939847-13-5 .
• Messerschmitt AG. Messerschmitt Bf 109K; technisch Kompendium, Handbüch, Ersatztelliste, Rep.-Answeisung, Bewaffnung Bedienungsvorschrift; 1943–1944. [Elektronische Resource] (Reprint). Ludwigsburg, Germany: Luftfahrt-Archiv, 2006. ISBN 3-939847-14-3.

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Hello Kris,

I've found the spare parts list from your part. It's a Einbau-Verstellgetriebe. Unfortunately the C-7 version is not mentioned, but the spare parts list is from the year 1943, so I guess the C-7 was a later evolution of these gearboxes.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...llgetriebe.jpg

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

So Dear friends please inform me when C-7 (Gerät-Nr.: 9-13005 C-7) was a later evolution of these gearboxes ?

With whiche type of main engines (Daimler-Benz DB 605) was conected gearbox C-7 ?

Some details about main engines :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_605

Still waiting for next suggestion and answers.
(Big thanks for earlier answers).

I will try in the nearest time add some photos from wrack details ---- As I promissed:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...CPmqiZXCsta_BA
but next will be soon - but I belive that collegues from FORUM help use agree full type name of Bf 109 "?" ( it seems to be G or K - but more).
Of course I will inform about "caliber of ammunition" - it can a little bit help.-----> Ammo caliber: 13 mm and 20 mm

In the moment of hit in the ground Bf109 exploded and bursted into flames.


Best regards,

Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Next technical data - plate to id from the same Bf-109:

Any idea from which part/device of aircraft ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
("In blue" probably - Gerät-Nr.: ........ 0
Werk Nr.: 490362
Hersteller: mcu
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Today I have found next plate:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
(probably: Gerät-Nr.: ........ 0
Werk Nr.: 490362
Hersteller: mcu
--------------------------------------------------------

So:
Bf 109G-10/R6 <- mcu

Some BF109-G10 was with similar Werk Nr.:


12/12/44 Gefr. Kurt Nickel
2./JG 3 Bf 109 G-10
(490759)
Black 13 Combat

and

1/01/45 Obgfr. Siegfried
Reuther
3./JG 3 Bf 109 G-10
(490674)
Yellow 1

Source: http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg3.html

Can you on base: Werk Nr.: 490362 check MIA pilot name ?

Info. from my collegue - team " POMORZE1945":

45.03.03. 490362 100% I./JG 3

but who he was ? Pilot name = ?????

Source:
http://hloubkari.cz/forum/index.php?topic=600.10;wap2

Best regards,

Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Hello Kris,

Looks like you have found the main aircraft data plate.
"mcu" is te producer code - Erla Maschinenwerk GmbH, Flugzeugbau, Werk 1, Leipzig

The Werknummer 490362 fits to an Erla produced Bf 109G-10.
Here is the loss record for the above mentioned Wnr.
Bf 109G-10 WNr.490362 03.03.45 I./JG3 Uffz. Günther Rabeler (verm.), unbekannte Ursache - Ort unbekannt, 100%

Perhaps someone here has the NVM for Uffz. Rabeler.

best regards,
Tomislav

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dears,

THANKS a lot !!!!

PS

" ....Bf 109G-10 WNr.490362 03.03.45 I./JG3 Uffz. Günther Rabeler (verm.), unbekannte Ursache - Ort unbekannt, 100%

Perhaps someone here has the NWM for Uffz. Rabeler. ????? ...."


Here is also the same Werk Nr. for :

Rabeler, Günther Uffz ; I/JG-3 (Reich Def Ost) Bf 109G-10 ; Werk # 490362 ; (lost 3/3/45) ; Fighter Operational Clasp ; MIA 3 March, 1945, cause and location not reported.
http://aircrewremembrancesociety.com...anPilotsR.html

( Names not fly but fighters - now we have to confirm by "special" test) but ... big probability. :)


Best regards,

Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

NVM is a german archive record called Namentliche Verlustmeldung.
It contains more detailed information on the loss like, for example, the number on the pilots ID disc.

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

So pilot was from Staffel 2./JG3 (new) (Stab I./JG3)
and in last mission from airfield:

Source:
http://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/jg3.html

One question - do you know his "side number" and colour ?

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Finally something to prove identity....yes, that is the main data plate.

March 3, 1945
Bf 109G-10, Werknummer 490362, schwarze 9, 2./JG 3
Uffz. Günther Rabeler, geboren 13.11.1919.
EM 68416/830
Start 16.25 Pinnow, ~17.00 Luftkampf mit Pe-2 und Lagg-3
Vermisst Raum Freienwalde/Stargard.

Acc to my records Uffz. Rabeler was declared dead after the war and is still listed as MIA.

Thanks,

John

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

THANKS John !

Soon this information will be changed - we will write official letters to German institution.
Of course if pilot will be confirmed in 100% also will have own grave on the cmentary as known soldier.


Best regards,

Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

And as already stated on an other forum, Uffz. Günther Rabeler is also mentioned (with picture) in the German Red Cross (DRK) Bildlisten, page LH 160.

J.

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

He is also here, but without photo:

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/dkm_de...l_wk1u2_ns.htm

Scharnebeck, Landkreis Lüneburg, Niedersachsen:
Verlustliste aus: Henning Soltau: Scharnebeck in der Zeit der
Umbrüche von 1914 bis 1945: - Monarchie, Republik und Diktatur
[in Steffen Grimme: „Scharnebeck gestern und heute“].
II WW

Namen der Gefallenen:

Unteroffizier RABELER Günther Geburtsdatum: 1919 Todesdatum: 1945

Can I ask on prive (DRK) Bildliste, page LH 160 ??? :)

Thanks,

Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dears ,

Just now we can inform that "our pilot" from wrack Bf109G-10 (Werk Nr. 490362) on the "Schwarze 9" was Uffz. Günther Rabeler from 2./JG3 (Stab I.)
By the way one of our collegues from team received information from archive about Russian pilot Andrienko Stiepan Ivanowicz (from 233 Fighter Regiment) which probably (on 99%) hitted aircraft with Uffz. Günther Rabeler during air combat.
Russian pilot Andrienko Stiepan Ivanowicz for battle (on 3.03.1945) with strong German forces received order: «Красное Знамя».

It was great job our: "FORENSIC MEDICINE" and team "POMORZE1945" - both from Szczecin.

http://pomorze1945.com/?co=50&lang=EN

Big THANKS also for all other people involved in our action.
Special THANKS for Andrzej ,Piotr and Edward ! :)

( PS- the same Werk Nr.:490362 and pilot name there are on the list from DRK).

Best regards,

Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Very interesting read there Kris and well done to your team on their hard work.

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

For the data above, this information is not confirmed out of context. So this is what is known about the Soviet pilot that ran a 03.03 45 aerial combat with a score of three victories:
03.03.45 – 1 – Ю-52 – сев. Фрайенвальде
03.03.45 – 1 – ФВ-190 – вост. Альтдамм
03.03.45 – 1 – ФВ-190 – сев. – вост. Альтдамм
He never scored a Me109.
To sum up how you can give a reliable source from whence this information.
PS.
This pilot has only fly in JaK-3
Best Regards
Jarek

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dear Jarek ,

You have not right ("in half") - information about:
Andrienko Stiepan Ivanowicz (from: 233 Fighter Regiment, aircraft: Jak-3 // 233 иап, самолёт: Як-3)
is on base Russian document from archive. If you need more details you can contact directly with Piotr B. :) - I am sure that he will confirm this fact.
I saw this document, too. :)
He will explain you information about ( "...He never scored a Me109. ...") Fw190 / Bf109 - I think.

Best regards,

Kris

PS - I know that is very and very interesting real situation about combat battle in 3.03.1945 between German 2./JG3 pilots and pilots from 233 Fighter Regiment ( some additional info. proably soon - it needs a lot of time)

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

One of our collegues try to build copy of Bf109G-10 (Werk Nr. 490362) with "Schwarze 9" used by Uffz. Günther Rabeler from 2./JG3 (Stab I.), can you help us agree type of camufflage/painting used on this fighter producted on the end 1944 by Heersteler/Manufacter: Erla Maschinenwerk GmbH, Flugzeugbau, Werk 1, Leipzig
Is it possible agree on base old photos ? I not belive but maybe somebody of you have picture of simillar aircrafts from 2./JG3 Stab I delivered to this unit on the end 1944 ?
It will be nice make small copy Bf109 G-10 for memory of this pilot.

Best regards,

Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dears,

Here is some pictures of detail from crashed BF109G10 (Werk Nr.: 490362) like for example buckles.
Please have a look on the same aircraft (which belong to pilot Gunter Rabeler) there were 2 different types of buckles.
One of them was repaired and protected before opening with wire - look interesting , can you show me where this buckles could be used (I think about this with codes) ?

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...KfL--nPtYj2qgE

Here this buckles:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-L...0/IMG_7801.JPG
This one repaired with wire:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...75582892849906
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...75577527158898

https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...75980151868818
https://picasaweb.google.com/1128626...75999731494466

Just now we are trying describe all details from this aircraft. So soon I will attache more photos but it needs time for cleaning.

Have you Instruction Manuals for Bf109G or list spare parts ?????
It can help us at id of the rest of details from this wrack.

Best regards,
Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

I have seen that kind of fastening on the usual 'tri-spherical' oygen bottle.

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

I have seen the same clamps used on fl30593 kabinen feuerlöscher

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Dear Friends,

I looking for photo with Gunter Rabeler , Stab I , 2./JG3 , Werk Number 490362 with ""Black 9"" or his military career.

If somebody has some information please contact on prive via e-mial: Huball25@poczta.fm

I had talk with his familly and they have not picutres of his aircraft Bf109 G10.
I know also that he learned young pilots and he was interested flying from early age.

Best regards,
Kris

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

HI Kris!

Contact me when you can...I restore me109's and can ID most of the parts you have.

Also, your PM box is full...

Mike

Re: German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland
 

Hi,

Yes I cancelled some massages from PM box - now You can write message or use my email address.
Thanks for answer.