Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

This is a question wich certainly bothers all of us who had a chance to go through these documents but couldnt find a match for which they were certain it exists. Leaving aside the lack of documents for the 1944 and part of 1945, I would like to know what do you think how complete are the lists which survived. On many ocassions I came upon cases of certain aircraft losses which could not be verified through GQM lists although there were casaulties and even W.Nr. provided in other documents. I understand that some losses from 1943, especially the second half of that year could have been reported by GQM in 1944 bu there are numerous cases in earlier years, to name but a few:

6.4.41. I have a photo of crash landed Do 17Z, this loss does not correspond with the lost Do 17Z of 8./KG 3 which was the only Do 17Z reported as lost over Yugoslavia on that date
4.7.41. Ju 88 4N+EH W.Nr.800 went missing in Yugoslavia, crew Lt.Adam, Ofw.Will, Ofw.Teupe and Uffz.Olterbach
18.7.41. Fi 156 crashed at Zemun airdrome and burst into flame, Gen. Ludwig von Schröder died of wounds 27.7.41.
29.8.41. Do 17E of GKFS.5 force landed in shallow water into the sea with landing gear up, next to the Greifswald airdrome
30.9.41. Fw 58 crash landed at auxiliary airfield near Cacak, Serbia, and was subsequently set afire by its crew

From my experience, I suppose that at least 5% and at times up to 10% of actual losses have not been included in GQM lists, and this I mean 60%-100% losses, not damaged aircraft which could be repaired in the field. I exclude any possibility of it being deliberately done at any level to hide own losses, but just think that this happened because of the size of the area over which Luftwaffe operated, bad communications, pure size of the paperwork received every day and human factor.

Opinion?

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

First, there are two major loss lists. The combat unit loss KG, JG, ZG, etc. are in "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Verbänden" originating from Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. etc. The other major list is the "Tägliche Verlustmeldung Schulen usw." which cover school units and a wide variety, literally hundreds of non-combat LW aircraft operators. So, first you need to determine what kind of unit operated the aircraft or search both units. Since the losses are not listed in pure chronological sequence, but rather when the report was received at the compiling location, you may have to search a nunber of dates to ensure you have covered all the entries that might be related to your interest. Occasinally the reports may be months after the actual loss date, although this the exceptin, it is more likely days or weeks. Of course, there are also the losses that somehow fell in the cracks and were missed completely, but up to 1945, I think these were a small percentage. There is still another category and that is damage or loss at the factories before acceptance as a result of either accident , bombing or strafing damage. In addition to the major lists, there are lower level lists from individual units or at a luftflotte level or reports from salvage units of aircraft recovered. If all these are put together the loss information, even for 1944 can probably be constructed pretty well, although it certainly would be nice to find it all in one place.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

You might note that occasionally corrections were made to the "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Verbänden" originating from Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. etc., days and even weeks after the original entry. So, look at later entries, and you might see a change of all manner of data, including the date of the incident.

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

Ju 88 4N+EH is in the Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt loss list with a date of 4.7.41. The Do 17E of GKFS.5 would be in "Tägliche Verlustmeldung Schulen usw." There is not enough information to tell about the other examples you have listed.

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

"Ju 88 4N+EH is in the Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt loss list with a date of 4.7.41. The Do 17E of GKFS.5 would be in "Tägliche Verlustmeldung Schulen usw." There is not enough information to tell about the other examples you have listed."

Ju 88 - well, speaking about a human factor! I obviously missed it!
Do 17E of GKFS.5 - I lost few days on microfiche trying to find that exact aircraft but I didn't. I have a war diary of Croat unit whose pilots were there at training at the time and the event is described in detail. I dont believe plane which force-landed in water with undercarriage up could have been damaged less than 10% and thus not reported.
Do 17Z on 6 April 41 - I have a photo of cras-landed aircraft with Yugoslav soldiers guarding it in sunny day. The next sunny day in Balkanfeldzug was on 13 April and by then KG 2 and KG 3 were already operating over Greece.
Fi 156 and Fw 58 - both aircraft belonged to Fl.Ber.Kdo.Serbien and source of information is NAW T-501/Reel 246.

"You might note that occasionally corrections were made to the "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Verbänden" originating from Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. etc., days and even weeks after the original entry. So, look at later entries, and you might see a change of all manner of data, including the date of the incident."

I'm quite aware of that. A good example could be Lt. Willi Kothmann: on 8 April 41 he was reported missing over Yugoslavia in Bf 109E on 6 April 41; on 11 April 41 it was reported that he was actually wounded; on 11.2.42. it was reported he actually returned to base without any injuries or damage to plane!?

"First, there are two major loss lists. The combat unit loss KG, JG, ZG, etc. are in "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Verbänden" originating from Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. etc. The other major list is the "Tägliche Verlustmeldung Schulen usw." which cover school units and a wide variety, literally hundreds of non-combat LW aircraft operators."

I am well aware of all of this, indeed I bought both sets of these documents on microfiche few years ago and spent months in going through them.

"In addition to the major lists, there are lower level lists from individual units or at a luftflotte level or reports from salvage units of aircraft recovered. If all these are put together the loss information, even for 1944 can probably be constructed pretty well, although it certainly would be nice to find it all in one place."

I agree completely, its just the question how complete major lists are. There were some quite tough debates here and I got the impression that secondary sources have been ignored or missed completely on many ocassions.

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

I checked none of these losses are with the "schulen" list

sure of the dates ??, maybe we could try with wn...

rt

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

Do 17Z, 2563, Neuwirth, Uffz. Hans-Werner, , 8., KG 3, , 5K+DS, , , 06-Apr-41, MIA due to enemy fire. 2 others MIA, 1 KIA., , Yugoslavia, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4, , Belgrad, 100%, F
Do 17Z, 2575, Hertel, Uffz. Georg, , 8., KG 3, , 5K+GS, , , 06-Apr-41, WIA due to enemy fire., , Yugoslavia, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4, , Belgrad, b, F
Ju 88D-2, 0800, Adams, Ltn. Gerhard, , 1.(F), 22, wei§ E, 4N+EH, , , 05-Jul-41, KIA, cause unknown. 2 others KIA, 1 MIA., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , (Ostrow-Pskow-Luga), 100%, F

One of the 'missing' losses that I recall was of a Stuka from St.G. 1 during the campaign for Crete. The pilot literally paddled around the Med. for two days before being rescued. Later won the RK. May have been Joswig.

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

Perhaps I should have asked if you have converted the lists to a data format. If you have not, then your probability of "losing" a particular a/c and date are greatly increased. I have spent many hour decipering some of the really poor quality images for some of the lists, it is really easy to miss things. Note that Jim P and I both came up with some of your missing a/c very quickly. My spread sheet is only for certain types, primarily Ju 88 (with a lot of help from Jim P and others), Jim P has a real data base with everything. It take a lot of effort to do it, but in the end, it really helps.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

I totally agree with Artie Bob. I've been working with those reports for many years now but without transfereing the data you will be at an disadvantage trying to find things. It will take more time but it is well worth it. Don't forget to note the source microfilm or fiche when you do the transfer should you ever need to go back because there is a Berichtigung or Ergänzung to an entry that may date back one year or more.

Regards,

Norbert

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

Could you give us some details on these listings, please? Are they organized according to factories, companies, or aircraft type? Are all years covered? Did someone digitize these lists?
It would be v. important for me.
Thanks,

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

Dear Denes,

I believe these will only be found in the individual manufacturing company records. Some I have are from Junkers Bernberg and I have no idea how complete they are, I also have a few scattered from Fiesler. I don't believe anyone has digitized those.

Much of my recent research has been into source material that is not indexed, for that reason most of it has not been "harvested". I am finding bits and pieces of loss information, but no mother lode and it takes a major investment in time. Last year I completed a group of 150 plus reels filmed by ADI(k). Since I live 500+ miles from the archives, I make a week long trip once or twice a year and It took almost 3 years to go through that much material. I am now into some additional groups and it will take several years to get through them, but I am finding enough small items to keep me interested and hope springs eternal regarding finding the "mother lode"

Best regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

Gentlemen,

Sorry for breaking into your discussion, just a small question to this thread about loss lists experiences.

Can you explain brackets in such loss records as follows:

22.4.42 4./KG 1 F (Krestzy) Unbekannt Ju 88A-4 Werk-Nr.3690 (V4+ZM) 100%
VornameToteVerlVerm
Ofw. Kempfe, Paul F - - 1
Oblt.Muller, Walter B - - 1(1)
Uffz. Wagner, Herbert Bf - - 1
Fw. Manefeld, Hans Bs - - 1

Questions:

a. A number after each person. Obviously, that's a numer of missed. But what does the "one in brackets" after Oblt. Muller name mean?

b. What does the brackets of "Krestzy" mean? I can only assume it means that the place is not definite, but was supposed.


Thanks in advance,

Andrey

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

The bracket after Oblt. Müller shows that he is an officer! You will se that behind every officer!

Junker

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

And the brackets around Krestzy is usually seen with missing crews. Generally seems to refers to the 'target' of the sortie and the whereabouts of the crew/crash site is unknown - at least at the time the loss was noted.

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

Hi,

After cross checking various other records against the loss lists I can confirm that the place name in brackets apparently indicates a sortie or mission to that place, and not a crash site.

HTH

David

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

"Perhaps I should have asked if you have converted the lists to a data format. If you have not, then your probability of "losing" a particular a/c and date are greatly increased. I have spent many hour decipering some of the really poor quality images for some of the lists, it is really easy to miss things. Note that Jim P and I both came up with some of your missing a/c very quickly. My spread sheet is only for certain types, primarily Ju 88 (with a lot of help from Jim P and others), Jim P has a real data base with everything. It take a lot of effort to do it, but in the end, it really helps."

No I didn't do it for the whole butch. Actually I was looking only for aircraft lost over Yugoslavia or with Croat Legion aircrews and I have it in Excel. I didn't have the microfiche reader at home and had to go to local archive. Theirs didnt work so I had to cut every row of these beautifull microfiche into small long strip and read it through ordinary Microfilm reader! I can only say that it was very very painful experience!!! Transfering it all would take months if not years and anyway, I have limited my WW 2 aviation interests long ago (when I realized that I cannot follow it all).

"Do 17Z, 2575, Hertel, Uffz. Georg, , 8., KG 3, , 5K+GS, , , 06-Apr-41, WIA due to enemy fire., , Yugoslavia, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4, , Belgrad, b, F"

Well, I thought this could be "my" Do 17Z, but Mr. Ulf Balke informed me that this aircraft returned to base and that Georg Hartel went to Wiener Neustadt hospital for treatment.

"I checked none of these losses are with the "schulen" list
sure of the dates ??, maybe we could try with wn..."

Absolutely positive about the dates, but have no wn's. Its not the question about these particular aircraft, these are only examples. I have many more of them from secondary German sources but not included in major lists. There is another very good example:
On 31.12.41. Do 17Z of 15.(Kroat.)/KG 53 crash landed in middle of nowhere on Moscow Front after being hit by flak. Kriegsberichter Gerhard Rauchwetter was in the crew and took several photos of the event, he even published a story about it. Croat pilot gave his story to the journalists back home. After finding a cottage few kilometers away, they went in western direction the following morning and later came upon Wehrmacht. What happened with their aircraft I dont know, but both said that they had a very rough landing and that it filled with snow as the front windshield broke on impact with the ground. So again no chance of less than 10% damage (and keeping in mind the weather in this part of the world in January 1941, I believe it was never recovered as it was abandoned in the part of the front which was overrun by Soviet troops in February).
PS I just hope I wont be embarrased again with somebodys find of this plane in the list

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

There is a loss on 28.12.1941 of 15./KG 53 near Witebsk. 35% Bruch after hit by Flak. Could it be?

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

Thank you very much for clarification, gentlemen!

Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences
 

there is also one on 311241

KG53FWjasma bN FDO17Z-2114050



one question on the list the "amendments" are regrouped in head or end of particular days, but also systematicaly hand written near the event they modificate who written them ?? german authorities ???
rt