Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

In reading several Luftwaffe pilot memoirs I was shocked at the number of incidents involving American fighter pilots shooting Luftwaffe pilots in their parachutes.

Has anyone come across any incidents like this during the Desert Air War where British or commonwealth pilots gunned down Luftwaffe pilots in a similar way?

I should probably clarify why I’m asking this question since this topic has obviously been well discussed on this site - in reading Chris Shores “Fighters Over the Desert” it gives the appearance that the Desert Air War was as fair as war can be, almost sporting.

I’m trying to figure out if the fair play idea went out the window with the arrival of the Americans who brought a different attitude to the fight.

Thanks!
Bryan

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Doolittle was a big advocate of the practice, unofficially of course. While in command he encouraged it. It got to the point where FDR wrote a letter with specific instructions not to shoot at pilots bailing or under there chutes. Whether over allied held territory or not.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

The Americans believed the Germans could always build more fighters, no matter what was done to their aircraft industry, so the way to destroy the Luftwaffe was by killing its pilots. It has been argued that verbal instructions to that effect were given to American fighter pilots beginning around February 1944. No one has satisfactorily proven this yet, but it sounds logical. There are numerous examples of this in the Jochen Prien histories of individual Jagdgeschwader and in the Alfred M. de Zayas books on Allied war crimes against German soldiers and civilians.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Yes civilians. Some frustrated American pilots who could not find targets would strafe German farms, people, bicyclist, cars, cows, whatever they could find.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

de Zayas has similar incidents by non-American pilots, too. According to fully investigated cases, RAF and Empire pilots in Italy had a "thing" for Wehrmacht ambulances with big red crosses painted on the roofs. They loved to swoop down and shoot them to shreds. All of the Wehrmacht war crimes investigative files survived the war and are available at Freiburg. OKW encouraged these investigations to counter the relentless accusations of war crimes made against German forces during the war. IIRC, the entire collection runs to some 2,500 case files, but it may be more.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Moderator's note:

We've had this discussion before and as I recall every combatant nation thought its parachuting pilots were being shot up by the enemy, so Oberst's post should not be taken as a cue for another round of the international blame game.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

O.K., so we'll let Oberst and other with similar opinions who provide no sourcing accuse Americans of war crimes, and the small number of Americans who are still members here are not permitted to respond in a fair and reasonable way? Or have I misunderstood you?

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Well, private and confidential letters of a Luftwaffe Pilot family member of my Mothers side tells me different, my appologies for not posting them.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

You have sources and documentation for this claim?

When Doolittle was commander of 8th AF he was acutely aware that there were FAR more USAAF crews bailing out over Germany than LW. You make him out to be pretty stupid without specifics?? please document this claim?

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

This is a weary discussion - for every claim of a luftwaafe pilot being killed in his chute there are eyewitnesses of bomber crews bing killed intheir chutes or by civilians or soldires on the ground. I have a personal friend, Bill Cullerton who was shot down over Ansbach, suurendered to SS and shot in the gut with his surrendered .45 - saved by a German Catholic Priest during the last two weeks of the war.

What are we to make of this 'Oberst'??

How many unarmed civilians were pushed into gas chambers or shot by German soldiers on East front or France - how do you wish to balance this with your spurious claims of Jimmy Doolittle?

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Simply stated - who cares. How many extermination camps did your Luftwaffe pilot family members make visits to - and what were ther reactions to THAT?

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

no comment.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Unfortunately, war being what it was, Nick Beale is correct in that EVERY nation shot up innocent targets, be it, airmen hanging in parachutes, individual enemy soldiers, ambulances, cows, children, what have you.
I have book on the 357th FG where a pilot who was subsequently KIA wrote the following:"However, in the short time I've been flying I have been given the chance to see that in our aerial warfare against Germany we have brought ourselves down to their level and have murdered women and children of Germany. If this is a total war and has to be may God have mercy on us...Within this group with which I am flying we strafed houses,villages, and even though I didn't do it myself,I'm as guilty for I do not have the courage to quit before I do kill innocent people."

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

" The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

But plagiarism no

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

I think the OP asks a fair question that should not be met by emotional trench warfare, but honest research.

In this context, German war crimes or other "two wrongs make a right"-fallacies have nothing to do with the OP's question. I am sure you will find many other threads dealing with German war crimes, but it really has no relevance in this thread.

Remember that the war is over. Let's try to act like it as well. :)

Just my two cents.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

If this is answer to my post Larry, yes you have misunderstood. My memories of the previous rehearsals of this argument are that heat was generated but little light and I'd simply hoped that we needn't go through it all again. Better to let evident BS speak for itself, don't you think?

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Yes, this is a shop-worn subject that does not need periodic rehashing on this site. People who want to pursue this aspect of the war can do so over on Axis History Forum where a special section (Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes) and moderator (David Thompson) have been set aside for it. However, we must recognize that new members are constantly joining this Forum who are unaware of the subject's earlier history on 12 O'Clock High and how inflamable it is. If their interest appears genuine, then I think they deserve some directions on where to find the primary documentation.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Ha! missed this one completely.

Some of my family were simple farmers during WWII. They had no Idea about the extermination camps until AFTER the war. They were not privy to secret NAZI goverment activities nor were they members of the Waffen SS. My Great Uncle did fly a 109 for the Defence of the German Homeland & Her people, not for NAZI ideology.

Perhaps you can include that in your next book.

Kindest Regards

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Good sentiments - what triggered my response was an unfounded, undocumented reference to an 'instruction' from FDR to Doolittle. Doolittle is not alive to rebut Oberst and Oberst is not forthcoming with his documentation for such character assasination.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

One will never ever find official USAAF documents pertaining to shooting pilots hanging from there chutes (aside from the FDR letter), Winston Churchill however publically stated it. Therefore you must reley on witness accounts. Sorry Bill if its not on a official USAAF document.

Kindest Regards.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

If there was an instruction there should be a written order somewhere.

Having said that I did see gun camera footage from an American P-51 where a German pilot hanging in a parachute was shot, and saw the very same veteran pilot bragging about it in a documentary. He claimed that the German pilot had done it first, and wanted to give him his own medicine. The documentary also featured the Bf109 ace Günther Rall, but I can't remember its name.

Anyway, if anyone has new sources on this, that would be interesting. If not this whole thread is not very useful, in my humble opinion.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

As Nick states the shooting of airmen on parachutes has been covered before. A few years ago there was a TV documentry on the 8th Air Force and a USAAF ace was asked about being ordered to shoot up parachuting enemy pilots. He said there was no instruction in his Group, but they were ofton told a baled out Luftwaffe pilot could climb into another fighter the next day and shoot down a bomber with its ten man crew. From what I read I had the impression that a Luftwaffe pilot jumping from a Me262 would ofton get shot at. However looking through what I have I found of around 60 combat baleouts 10 pilots were killed due to parachute failure/jumping too low, of those shot at while in their chutes 5 were killed 1 wounded and 3 were safe plus one guy shot at on the ground was unwounded. Unfortunately I have no figures for the desert war although a couple of books on air combat over Malta indicates that it could get quite ruthless.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

there is no doubt that all sides commited these acts, I am seriously dubious it was sanctioned by higher authorities, simply as they would not want any repurcussions heading thier way, but before anyone gets a little too sanctimonious over it I would ask a simple question-

whats the difference in shooting at a baled out pilot and a tank crew evacuating a burning tank?

to even remotely judge these actions you have to try and understand the mindset of the time, total war dehumanises an enemy, that was'nt a son or brother or father they were killing it was an enemy, if you were an allied serviceman it was a nazi, a member of the armed forces of the nation that plunged europe into the war and caused the millions of deaths that it led to, if you were a german it was an invader who would destroy your home and bring destruction to your nation!

I read an account of a pilot who stated quite honestly that the transport targets he shot up could rarely be verified as genuine military targets, but as he had seen the aftermath of Luftwaffe strafing and bombing attacks on UK south coast towns and the civillian casualties that were in his opinion deliberatly caused, he simply didnt care, "they were getting a taste of thier own medicine"

sentiments echoed by many bomber crews who flattened german cities!

its best not to kid ourselves that air warfare is somehow more chavalrous than ground combat, because its rubbish, there was a LOT of hate back then!

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

A Luftwaffe pilot from Jg52 once told my friend Bernd that he was shocked to see Americans shooting his comrades in there parachutes, and that even the Russians didn't do it!
With the Americans it was common place. Even if ordered I guess most people just would think it immoral, but not it seems many Americans. Perhaps they were frustrated at the lack of targets?

Regards

Johannes

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Thanks for the information guys however I may have phrased my original question improperly which led this discussion slightly off topic. Here's a more blunt version:

"Has anyone ever come across an account of an Allied or Luftwaffe pilot being shot in his parachute during the Desert Air War?"

I realize that this topic has been covered before, and inevitably causes intense discussions, however in going through the old posts I have yet to find a reference of a pilot being shot in his parachute during the Desert Air War (hence the question).

Thanks!
Bryan

Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Hello Bryan

If I recall correctly W/Cdr Clive Caldwell gained his nickname "Killer" for the regular practice of shooting at Axis airmen who had baled out of their aircraft. I have read that he did this in revenge after witnessing a German pilot do this to his friend P/O Donald Munro on 4 July 1941. Other accounts have him being bestowed this sobriquet for his ground strafing activities. Perhaps others can add additional information confirming or not any of this. An interesting article on him can be read at: http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...me-Killer.html.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Not necessarily the Desert War, but in Tunisia I have found ONE instance - mentioned only in a post-war commercially published history and not wartime records: 17 April 1943 - The 1st Fighter Group lost two P-38G-10-LO aircraft, respectively piloted by Capt James Harman of the 94th Fighter Squadron and Lt Robert B. Anderson, shot down by enemy fighters west of Palermo. The group history by Mullins (p. 59) alleges that Harman was strafed in his parachute and killed. I am also going through ALL the USAAF bomber and fighter mission reprots/unit records (with major gaps in the terribly documented PR and OBS groups) for that period and so far have not encountered any other reference to such incidents. Nor do the Americans ever mention strafing German pilots in their parachutes. If my memory serves, Doolittle was the 12th AF commander during this period. Needless to say, there are no official orders for USAAF pilots flying in Tunisia to fire at bailed out enemy airmen. Seems like these alleged incidents appear to have happened more frequently later in the war.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

I have been through the Luftwaffe loss lists line by line, but it has been a while. It would seem that if the practice of shooting parachuting aircrew had occurred very often, it would have been mentioned in the lists. My recollection is there were very few indications of pilots or crew members lost by enemy gunfire while parachuting. Can anyone else who has actually gone through the lists in detail confirm my recollection?

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

I have come accross a MACR listing that indicates that Me109s strafed a B-25 crew after the plane ditched in the Med.If I remember correctly, it was in the March-June 1943 timeframe.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Caldwells name was bestowed on him for his insistence on attacking any ground targets he could find on RTB, apparently he had a thing about carrying ammo back unused!

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

not the desert per se but related, there are several reports of 109 pilots collapsing chutes with thier slipstream during the malta siege, one instance apparently a 109 collapsed the chute of his own countryman!
there is also a report of a RAF pilot strafing a dingy in rsponse to such antics!
also several italian and german pilots who bailed out were lynched by Maltese citizens upon landing!

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Most likely the 109 was collapsing his country mans chute to loose altitude quickly. Common tatic when the enemy is firing at there pilots.

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

erm yeah right, he certainly did lose altitude quickly, followed by a sickening thud when he hit the floor!
I dont think you grasp the results of a collapsed canopy there Oberst!

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

I understand with enough altitude it can and was done succesfully...

Kindest Regards

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

well not in this case or any other at Malta! in fact I know of no cases when a streamer has been recovered by anyone other than an experienced sky diver, to claim the LW used it as a tactic is absurd!

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

no its not absurd.. just truthful

Kindest Regards

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

'slipping a chute like a T-7 or T-10 is taught with caveat that you don't do it unless drifting into a hazard with near certain death consequences - like hitting power lines, etc.

Any pilot (or trooper) slipping a chute to increase his sink rate, like Kryten says, is nearly always going to learn the law of unintended consequences. It is even worse when one is loaded up with an 'extra' 80-100 pounds of stuff you don't want to search for in the DZ..

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

when i did my first jump with an Irvine one of the lads asked the instuctor "what he should do if he was going to land on a fence or other such obstacle", the instructor replied "keep yer feet together", in an irritated manner he then asked "well what dont we want to land on then"?
to which our instructor replied "a helicopter"

as you say even slipping a chute can lead to disaterous consequences, a collapsed chute is time to hit the reserve!

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Rather than trying to find which air force behaved badly (my own humble opinion being that in every air force there were pilots who shot at parachutes, and that in every air force the majority of pilots did not do it), I would like someone answers the following question:

Why will it be more unfair for a pilot to shot at an airman after he baled out than for a pilot to strafe infantry, truck drivers, etc..., or for an artilleryman to fire at any target that has not enough range to return fire, or for a soldier to fire from an ambush position ?

Re: Shooting pilots in their parachutes
 

Laurent - thanks for bringing sanity to the discussion..

1. Ok to torpedo a non-combatant passender liner suspected of carrying war materials.
2. Ok to strafe a crash landed aircraft with crew/pilot still on board
3. Ok to shoot an enemy soldier in the back or by ambush?
4. Ok to strafe road/rail traffic if you aren't certain that civilians aren't on board
5. Ok to bomb cities with dominant civilian presence
6. Ok strafing a troop convoy if a red cross vehicle present.
7. Ok to use 20mm flak cannon (prohibited by Geneva conventions) on enemy troops.
8-396 similar questions.

All nation's soldiers committed war crimes. Ditto many civilians.

Oberst - where do you get off isolating random acts of shooting up guys in a chute, in a war when that guy may kill you the next time up is kind of silly. Do you have rules of chivalry that only US pilots may be judged against?

If you are attempting some form of moral judgment against US pilots for such acts - in contrast with conspicuous silence on downed US fliers being murdered while surrendering, or millions of men, women and children murdered by an otherwise 'chivalrous' collection of soldiers - you would be moving rapidly to the hypocritical side of the argument.