He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All.

I am a scubadiver and I have found a He-219 in the Northern part of Denmark's west coast. I am looking for information of this crash, i can not find anything of a crash in this area.

Maybe it is a He-219A5/R4, because I found a magazine of MG-15 !!!.

Please send me photos and material of this subject!

Sincerely
Kim Christiansen

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Have you looked at the following website and contacted Søren C. Flensted the website author. He may have some information and would certainly be interested in your investigations.

http://www.flensted.eu.com/

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

The operating instructions for MG 15

If you want it, I can scan it - pdf File

MG 15 Stand in Focke Wulf 189

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploa...7taehn21sp.jpg

http://img4.fotos-hochladen.net/uplo...u10bpsvyg3.jpg


http://img4.fotos-hochladen.net/uplo...139cn6fvgs.jpg

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello RSwank.

Thank you for your answer.

Mr Flensted , do not know anything of this aircraft !!!!

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

The MG 15 was used in the FW 189 and Heinkel 111 Bombers.

The MG 15 was not used in the Heinkel 219

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_219

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

MG 15 on tripod with ZG 15 in central support

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploa...hg2paz64df.jpg

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello again.

My problem is . . What is a magasin from MG-15 dooing in in my wreck ???

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Are the seats still in the wreck? The He-219 was equipped with two ejection seats.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Best thing to do is to make some pictures of the wreck so we all can be in a position to help out. I'm sure Soeren has asked you about it? I have no losses He 219 in that area, but He 111 and He 115.

Junker

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Pics please, or it didn't happen lol

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Kim,
On what have you based the identification of the type of aircraft? How intact is the wreck ? Can one see the unit identification or serial nr.?
bregds
SES
www.gyges.dk

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Several He219 losses show aircraft with a three man crew, with a gunner carried, on earlier models was this a field modification. If so is it possible that an MG 15 could have been fitted, which if this aircraft is a He219 would explain one of these weapons being found. As far as I could see the only known loss in the sea off Denmark was the G9+AK (3 man crew killed) on 1-6-1944 off Muldbjerb, but this is off the east coast. The crash location has also been described as off the mouth of the Lymfjordes is this the same as off Muldbjerb?

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Yes it's the same location. But this wreck was partly recoveres by the Luftwaffe. And the third man was not a crewmember, but a mechanich, who they carried along on for the short stay at Aalborg-West. As there was no service personnel at Aalborg trained to service the He 219.

Junker

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

There were two experimental samples, the He 319 and He 419 V1, with a MG 15 as "Attrape" , was later equipped with a stronger mount.

Page: 46

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17332572/W...erman-Language

The test squadron was stationed at Rechlin.

Nachtjagdgeschwader 200
The squadron was often used for training and test flights, such as for the Y-process at Rechlin.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Gliederung.htm

I doubt it but myself.
None of the 155 series machines of the Heinkel 219 was armed with an ancient MG 15.
This was introduced in 1942 only to the airfield defense, the Army Luftwaffendivsionen or in old aircraft types.

The Heinkel 219 had an armament between 4 MG 151 and MK 103 or MK 108 (Maschinenkanonen).

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

To RSwank:
In front of the plane we found one seat , half of the plane is covered by sand !!!

To Junker:
I am trying to get some photos, soeren are looking as well after informations !!!

To SeS:
I will contact you by your website !!!

To Brian B.
Thank you for your informations, It is a HE-219 for sure, we know the one from Muldbjerg, this is a new unknown !!!

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Dear all and hello (again) Kim

First of all, the planned A-5, 3 seat He219 was never built in any substantial quantities as suggested by several publications but...

1) from the very beginning, the design of the He219 envisaged an emergency seat (Notsitz) in the rear fuselage as can be seen in the He219A-0 handbook.
2) the first unit who tried a field modification, was the II./NJG 1 in Deelen. In some of the He219's received from the I./NJG 1 in Venlo, the aft entrance door (behind the weapons bay alias Waffenwanne) was replaced by a plexiglass panel (and perhaps a short barreled MG too, the documents I have are not very specific about that).
3) Heinkel also envisaged a 3 seat cockpit, one in a tandem configuration, one in a wider concept and the assignment of a He219 for this planned V-34 was no sooner than February 1944 (Wnr. 190112). The second planned 3 seats He219 (V-23) effectuated not earlier than April 1944 but the modification job was started in June 1944.
4) as far as I can recollect from a recent mail to Kim, almost all accidents with 3 and in one case even 4 victims are not related to any operational 3 seats He219 but during a rapid movement of a Staffel. I would like to remember the honourable members/readers of this discussion board that not every Fw190 that crashed with two victims was a two seater: sometimes pilots took their 1th technician with them if a rapid tactical movement was neccessary.

What remains is a most interesting find of a He219 in Danish waters for which no documentary evidence or loss report has popped up so far. So an identification of the wreckage will hopefully a new addition for the still expanding database of known He219's.

All the best, Marcel Hogenhuis / Venlo

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Junker thanks for the clarification on third man carried on the G9+AK on 1-6-1944.
Marcel looking in the Schiffer publication on the He 219 page 99 says that II/NJG1 modified some of their 219s as you describe even fitting a MG 81Z in this makeshift ventral position. Looking through the losses I have for extra men carried there are 2 losses carrying a Ist Wart, one carrying a Ist Wart and a Waffenwart. The only combat loss I have with a three man crew is the G9+LP on 21/22-6-1944 Oblt. Hager landed safely at Eindhoven after his Bf Fw.von Bergen was killed in combat and Bordschutze Fw.Korschgen baled out.
As you say it is hoped Kim's find can be identified,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Brian,

Yep, thanks for reminding me, this Wnr. 210903 was one of the few Rostock produced A-0's and directly delivered from Rostock to the II./NJG 1, converted there "in the field" to a 3 seats configuration. On 11th July this and most other He219's of the II./NJG 1 were handed over to the I./NJG 1. They later transferred Wnr. 210903 to the Schulstaffel NJG 1 in Grove, were it was found after VE-Day. It ended up in the USA as FE-612.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

The NASM HE-219 does have a compartment in the rear fueslage, accessed via a bottom panel. There is no plexiglas or window of any type. There is not really a seat in compartment, but instead restraining harness and belt. Restoration staff believes the compartment was only utilized for radar calibration flights.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi,
Could we try to keep the tongue in cheek and stick to the subject before this discussion assumes the nature of X-Files. AFAIK the NASM bird is FE-614.
I am still awaiting some sort of confirmation that the wreck found by Kim is in fact a He219, a photo of a He219 unique part would do wonders. Or just a photo of the MG 15 magazine.
kind regards
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Michäel,

I have received a video of the dive and several details are unmistakenly from a He219. Another feature that gives a rough estimate of the crash, is that this wreck has US type profile. That became the new fashion after September 1944...

I am afraid to contradict the staff at NASM: how do they think that a third person in a small compartment without windows or even instruments to calibrate anything should have used this 'Notsitz' for calibrating radar?
I do hope that the answers on a very specific question does not contain such speculations... :o

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello All.

I have some photos in my album from He-219, found in Denmark !!!

PLEASE LOOK AT MY PUBLIC PROFILE !!!

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Marcel,
Thank you very much, but why do we have to come to point of water boarding before it is finally, positively conformed that the wreck is indeed a He219. I fully understand, accept and appreciate the requirement to keep the actual location of the wreck secret, but this beating around the bush keeps those of us who do want to help somewhat in the dark. And could we possibly see a picture of the MG 15 ammo drum.
kind regards
Michaël
PS. US type profile?????????

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

I can only agree that we should continue the debate when we have 110% confirmation as to the type. Then we can go about finding out the details of the loss. I even might have a small clue to what it could be.

Junker

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Since a video exist, it should be possible to post stills of He219 unique parts.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi.

Photos of magasin fit to MG-15, WHAT IS THIS MAGASIN DOOING IN HE-219 ???

Photos can been viewed from my album on my public profile....

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Kim,
Thank you very much.
Could you post a picture of a part which is unique to a He 219 please.
At some point you talked about having found a seat, and that is a pretty unique to a He219. Have you got a picture?
bregds
SES
PS. Were the ammo drums empty or filled with ammo?

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi SES.

Sorry I dont have a pic of the seat. First dive was whitout a camera, second dive was approx 10 days after, then the sand covered one more meter of the plane, the pics in my album are from this second dive, today the wreck is totally covered by sand.

Even on the first dive , i saw the nose wheel and it was inside !!!

The ammo drums are filled with 76 pcs .

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Kim,
Thanks a lot. But you are sure that what you saw was a He219 ejection seat?
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi SES.

No, i am not sure, i mean is was the second seat, pointed backward.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Thanks a lot.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Michaël,

Picture 3 shows the two, US profile type tyres in the bay aft the engine compartment whereas picture 4 and 10 not only shows the curved ammonition feeding channels for the MK108 but also the pressure bottle to load/reload these MK108's.

Drawings of the same construction in the Ersatzteilliste He219A-7 convinced me that Kim has really found a He219. The damage is such that the He219 must have made a real impact, not an emergency landing on water (which, I guess, no one risked when you have ejection seats to get you out).

I would like to stress the point that I promised Kim to stay silent about this find but now that it is broadcasted, I can speak out freely with a sense of relieve, because I don't want keep secrets for my Danish friends like you and Jörn.

All the best, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Marcel,
Thank you very much for your comments, and I'll take your word for the identification of the parts, albeit it looks like a Picasso to me.
kind regards
Michaël

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

As Marcel says photo 3 shows the twin wheel undercarriage of a He 219 which along with his other comments would appear to confirm type identification. On Soren's site 'Airwar Over Denmark' he described the shooting down of He219 A-O 190107 on 21-5-1944 and says the Mustang of F/Lt Shirreff (19 Sqd) was hit by return fire from the rear gunner (Bf Uffz Tants) of what they initially thought was a 'Leo 45'. The aircraft attacked being the He219 190107 crashing south of Herning. If this He219 had a rear gun fitted is it possible MG15s may have been field-fitted on some aircraft for use by the Bf. Would the use of this older weapon offer a quick and simple fitting and the saddle drums would not have needed ammo boxes being fitted in the rear cockpit, as for later belt feed weapons, assuming any such fitting may have restricted the ejection seat. I know this does not help with the identity of the aircraft Kim found, but as this is a Discussion group the finding of a MG15 saddle drum is in itself of interest and queried by Kim.

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Glad at last to see photo evidence. I agree that it most likely is a He 219. Now the hunt for a possible candidate goes on.

Junker

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hello Brian,

Thanks for your interesting remarks. The sole doubt I have by 'rear fire' is that this He219 had a two men crew (Tampke and Tants) so we must assume that Tants did not hide himself somewhere in the fuselage, but stayed neatly on his seat. Is the damage to the Mustang and/or pilot specified ? Bullet holes or could it be damage from debris?

The first, pre A-0 produced He219 prototypes had a bulged rear canopy with an oval shaped hole/window which would enable to house a MG for rear defense. However: Wnr.190107 was the 36th A-0 produced He219 from Schwechat and had the stretched, more aerodynamically shaped rear canopy most of us know.
In May 1944 the II./NJG 1 had some He219's too but 190107 was not among them and therefore not having the field modification as discussed above in one of my other postings.

I am still learning about the He219, its developement and history each day, but up to this day I never came across such canopies with rear firing MG's. Perhaps (in the heat of the fight) front fire has been mistaken for rear fire?

Just loud thinking but given our present knowledge, a He219A-0 with rear firing MG seems unlikely but please feel welcome to correct me if I am wrong.

Best regards, Marcel

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

It's higly unlikely that He 219 A-0 in Grove summer 1944 had any rear MG. The P-51 must have been hit by debries. It's not the only case where fighters report rear fire also by attacks on training aircraft who normally did not carry guns/ammunition untill late in the war. In Denmark training aircraft with guns started carrying ammo around late october 1944.

Junker

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi,
I am now fairly convinced that the wreck is a He219. I base it on the twin wheels, the front of a DB 603 and the feed for the Mk108.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Re post#34 by Brian.
IMHO there is no room for a MG 15 in the rear cokpit of a two seater.
bregds
SES

Re: He 219 found in Denmark !!!
 

Hi Guys thanks for the answers and photos the 'Airwar Over Denmark ' just says 'The rear gunner of the ''Leo 45'' fired back and hit White 1 in the starboard mainplane which caught fire, Shirreff managed to put out the fire by using up all his ammo'' ( from combat report ?). The book Fighter Squadron mentions the attack and damaging of one ''Leo 45'' and the shooting down of another, it reports the loss of F/L Bird to a Bf109, and F/Sgt Warren as missing but does not mention the damage to Shirreff's aircraft which returned. As Junker says the damage to the Mustang could hve been debris, hopefully an identity for this 219 can be found and the reason for the MG15 magazine,

Regards

Brian Bines