Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

In a book by Tony LeTisier on the battle for Berlin, there were two pictures of a wrecked Ju-52 which crashed on take off rom the East_West Victory Axis during the final battle of Berlin on April 26,1945.

Does anyone know the identity of the JU-52 and the circumstances behind the crash?

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

doesn't answer your question directly of course but I compiled the following after reviewing the 'Grey Wolf' book which has AH escaping his bunker in Berlin in a Ju 52 piloted by ace and RK holder Peter Baumgart (yes, seriously...the author has even appeared on Sky News to plug it..)

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2011/1...er-distan.html

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Can someone post this pic of a JU52 wreck in Berlin at the end of the war?
Having been to Berlin many times, and being a pilot myself.. I would like to figure out where JU-52's could have gotten in and out of Berlin Center.

The East West Ave that is always mentioned would not only be tight for an aircraft the size of a JU-52, there's the issues of the two major obstacles. The Brandenburg Tor and the Siegessaule.

Coming in over Unter Den Linden, you'd have to clear the BT (which really wouldn't be a big problem) but then you'd have a stopping problem. To come in from the other direction.. you'd have to make an arching approach around the SS and again, worry about stopping. This curved approach would be a handful for any pilot in normal conditions.. but to do it with low vis, while being fired upon and landing into a strip with debris is something I can't get a handle on.

Interesting discussion though~

Always
Motch

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Motch, the only picture I have is a poor Xerox copy of the appropriate page from Le Tissiers's book, Berlin Then and Now.

Maybe someone who has the book could post a picture?

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

The Siegessäule was moved in 1938. I have a facsimile map of Berlin in 1936 and then it stood on the Königsplatz, in front of the Reichstag (so not on the Charlottenburger Chaussee axis) rather than at Großer Stern as it does now. The major obstacle at the western end of the Chaussee would be the bridge at the Tiergarten S-Bahn station (intact on an aerial photo from March 1945). It's not that high but it is a solid obstacle.

(We stayed in a hotel by that station on holiday last year and I've walked the relevant stretch a few times as a result!)

According to Google Earth: Branderburger Tor – Großer Stern = c. 1.8 km; Großer Stern – S-Bahnhof Tiergarten = c. 1 km.

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

I am aware that the SS was moved... but that was prior to the timeframe we are talking about.
The distance between the SS and the BT is rougly 6000 ft/1850 meters. That in itself is a decent size runway UNTIL you take into consideration the two obstacles.

The SS is a 220 foot tall obstacle, and the BT comes in at 90 feet. Not the toughest thing to either fly over or avoid.. but again, it changes to approach path to the runway and also changes the amount of useable runway you have.
Add to that, smoke and low vis, plus debris and just can't picture a JU52 landing their under anything but ideal conditions.
April '45 was anything but ideal!

Also, the wingspan of a JU52 in roughly 97 feet long. The width of the Ave was roughly 110 feet. Not much margin for error.

I have also read that the lights poles WERE removed to make it a runway, yet I've also seen pictures of the Ave after the Fall of Berlin with the light poles standing there!

Pretty confusing yet VERY interesting at the same time~

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

"While the Luftwaffe did attempt to use the East-West Axis as a landing site for container (Behälter) drops any attempts to land large transport aircraft on the Ost-West-Achse after 26 April - if they were made - are almost certain to have failed. Indeed there are pictures depicting a wrecked Ju-52 that apparently crashed on take off from the East West Axis on 26 April 1945."

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2011/1...er-distan.html

http://www.anglonautes.com/hist_us_2...ssian_part.jpg

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Revi16..
I've read that about the containers and landing.
Again, "There are pictures depicting a wrecked Ju52"...
Would love to see them and maybe get a code off the aircraft so we can solve this mystery!

The pic you posted is great... however, it's actually taken from over the East/West Ave-runway. If someone had taken off from the direction that the plane is flying, they would see exactly what the photo shows.
What's really interesting is picture yourself in the left seat of a Ju52, smoke and haze around the Unter Den Linden, with the buildings on either side in flames. Plus, tracer fire coming up at you as every Russian with a bb gun is taking aim at ya!

Pretty harrowing~

Motch

PS> Anyone have pics of what the East West Ave looked like from the air or ground between the SS and the BT, from Apr 45 to May 45?

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Just another though...
Wonder if the Ju52 wreck that is talked about wasn't shot down doing airdrops?!
There are pics of a FW190 not to far from the Reichstag and have always wondered if he was shot down, crash landed after being shot, or landed there and got stuck while on the ground.
Bet that pilot would be great to chat with!

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Google Earth will give you 21 March 1945 and 31 December 1953 via its historic imagery feature. On the 1945 picture you can make out the shadows of the lamp standards — but this is seven weeks before the Russians launched their final assault, of course.

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Here is a 4-page discussion of landing aircraft on the East-West Axis through 26 April 1945 that includes quite a few photos (photos on p.4):

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=49&t=167239

The journalist who wrote most of the thread appears to be creditable. Anyway, he certainly collected one hell of a lot of material on the subject. He's a long-time Berlin resident, too.

L.

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

From an old article in Jet & Prop magazine are listed several losses from 21/26-Apr.

Ju 52/3mg4e, 6600, Grautoff, Hptm., , , , F.d.F., , SF+IF, SF+IF, , 21-Apr-45, 21.April 1945, RK?, Reich, Jet & Prop 3/95, p.43, Menke, (Schönwalde), 100%, F, , ,
Ju 52/3mg4e, 6566, KOHMANN, Hptm. Hanns, , , , F.d.F., , NT+NL, NT+NL, , 21-Apr-45, KIA due to ground fire near Sernow, Brandenburg., RK. Gepäckflgz. - baggage flight., Reich, Jet & Prop 3/95, p.62, photo, Menke, (Pocking-Schönwalde), 100%, F, , ,
Ju 52/3mg14e, 640181, Martin, Uffz. Ernst, , II., 7., TG 3, , 4V+GR, , , 26-Apr-45, Crashed 26./27April 1945, struck trees during landing., , Reich, Jet & Prop 4/95, p.48 photo, , Berlin, 100%, F, , ,
Ju 52/3m, 5111, Wagner, Uffz. Richard, , II., II., TG 3, , 4V+AN, , , 26-Apr-45, MIA 26./27April 1945, , Reich, Jet & Prop 4/95, p.50, , -, 100%, F, , ,

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Sounds like the last two are the best candidates...

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Larry..
I actually saw that thread a week ago, but being that this is a Luftwaffe site- I figured I'd throw out the question here.

I agree that the guy doing most of the posting seems pretty knowledgeable. Only problem I'm having is that he's not able to back up alot of stuff he's writing like some of the others.

I will add, that we may never know if Ju52's landed within Berlin at the end of April '45. Unless those pilots ever wrote something or some sort of official documents are found.. this may be a mystery unsolved.

Hoping to be back in Berlin in Feb again and will spend the entire time in the Tiergarten trying to figure this out!

Always
Motch

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Straying off topic, would I be right in thinking that the book operates on the common fallacy "you can't prove X absolutely, so Y must be true"?

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

good summation...and he's hardcore with it. See any of the other forums (Axis history, WW2talk, ww2f.com etc etc). Anybody putting a review up on amazon gets flamed. I've just attempted to look at the Luftwaffe aspects of his 'story' (Peter Baumgart 128-vic ace etc etc..I mean that's pretty basic stuff isn't it). Larry has also had some communication with him on the AHF regarding flights into Berlin..the journalist Larry refers to above is not Gerrard Williams by the way. That particular thread seems to have taken place during the writing and 'research' of 'Grey Wolf..'

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

I was quite taken with Baumgart's claim that the rescue flight put down in Magdeburg on the way to Denmark. Awfully magnanimous of the US Army (there since 18 April) to let them fly on, wasn't it?

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

and deadly serious too. This is not - at least in the author's eyes - a 'what-if' or 'alternate history' ..its on military history shelf of my local Waterstones. Deserves to be in the children's section.

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Every country has them, including or especially us. Here's a good example: Wilcox, Robert K. (1985). Japan's Secret War: Japan's Race Against Time to Build Its Own Atomic Bomb. William Morrow & Company. Wilcox lives in California.

These "authors" know that the best way to sell a book is to select a controversial topic and then write a sensationalist exposé. That Bacque nut from Montreal with his nonsense about the Americans and French intentionally starving to death over 1,000,000 German POWs in 1945-46 is another example.

Returning to April in Berlin, Georg Schlaug, the dean of Luftwaffe transport historians, has never uncovered anything to substantiate the Ju 52(s) landing and taking off from the Ost-West Achse. I used to correspond extensively with him and this subject came up at one point. Those who have subscribed to Jet & Prop and Flugzeug over the past 20+ years will recognize his name.

L.

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

BTW, I didn't spot the Ju 52 picture in my copy of Le Tissier's "The Battle of Berlin 1945" — I have the 2008 History Press paperback version. Is it not in that edition or did I just miss it?

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

lol.. and the plot thickens!

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Ok, here's a copy of a Xerox copy I have.

The description below is from Erich Kuby's book "The Russians and Berlin:1945" on April 26th.

"The first to arrive were two Ju-52s which landed on the East West crossover near the Victory Column...The planes landed safely. They brought in anti tank ammunition which was unloaded under Soviet fire. Wounded men were driven up from a hospital and loaded into the bays some of them on stretchers. Only one of the planes managed to take off again;the other brushed against a house and crashed."

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Meanwhile, back in the Bunker his undetectable double was keeping busy and someone was proposing a landing strip at Wannsee (see the attached information from Ultra).

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

very good Nick ! ..got to post that somewhere else if you have no objection...:D

'double' had presumably been throughly briefed on the military situation ..and knew what he talking about ;)

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Go ahead!

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Not a Ju52.. looks like a DFS-230 glider.

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

This was in Budapest, according to issue 40 of After the Battle magazine.

Re: Identity of Ju-52 lost Berlin April 1945-East West Axis
 

Thanks.. I'll have to dig through my ATB mags! Saw this pic online under "Berlin 1945"... guess it goes to show, got to be careful of the stuff you get off the internet.