Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064

I was wondering other then the fotos in the Kagero JG-11 book, if there is other fotos of this plane? If so, could one please post them. I also have a few more questions, did it use MW-50 or GM-1, and finally, is the W.Nr. correct for this machine? As always, thanks in adavnce.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

There are photos of this aircraft on Prien's history of JG 1/11, as well as in Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1935-1945 Vol. 3.

The fuel triangle is well visible and shows C3, which points to being equipped with MW 50 (or better said, it's GM 1 system modified to use MW 50).

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Hello,

Thanks for the information! Unfortunately I donot have those books :( I always thought the GM-1 on the G5/AS was installed in the right wing...

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Bought the book Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1935-1945 Vol. 3, found nothing on Gunther Specht's G-5/AS. Nice book otherwise.

Are there any colour profiles on W.Nr.110 064? Thanks.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

The book mentioned is the one written by J.R. Smith and J. D. Gallaspy and published by Kookaburra in 1977. On pages 120 and 124 there are two images of one of the planes flown by Specht, showing the tall rudder in one and in the other a 3/4 close-up from next to the cockpit towards the tail, showing the "AS" bulge and the personal insignia of the pilot.

Nowhere is to be seen any detail leading to the Werke Nummer.

BTW, from the presence of the visible air scoop in front of the windscreen, I personally tend to exclude that the plane of the photographs was a pressurized "G-5/AS", but more probably a G-6/AS instead.

This would also put some doubts on the Werke Nummer 110 064, or at least to the fact that it was the serial of the plane shown both in the Kagero and the Kookaburra's books.

IMHO, at least.

Günther Specht's Bf 109 G-5/AS W.Nr. 110 064
 

Hi guys

Lynn Ritger in The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Part 2 states that a number of Bf 109 G-6/U2 fighters were converted to AS types (95 by Erla, 98 by Mimetall and 80 by Blohm und Voss) but interestingly no Bf 109 G-6/U3/AS are listed nor indeed any G-5/AS for that matter. More Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft in Profile by Claes Sundin and Christer Bergström includes a quite nice color profile of the machine that is the topic of discussion and it is my understanding that five photographs depicting the port side of this aircraft can be found in Jagdgeschwader 1 und 11 Teil 2 by Jochen Prien and Peter Rodeike.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

I found one photo in my HDD (from eBay):

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...1&d=1320886872

Photos of the rudder can be found on Wikimedia Commons:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Kurt_Tank.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Kurt_Tank.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Kurt_Tank.jpg

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Awesome, awesome 1st foto! Thanks for posting ivan.

Leo,
thanks for the pointer to Claes Sundins book, I bought it and found it on page 106. Most interesting! Unfortunatly I do not have Prien's book.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

I copied Claes Sundin's awesome profile to make a skin for my personal use in the game IL-2. I hope he dosn't mind. I also added a few things that I thought were missed. Hope you guys like it. I refuse to use anything but historically accurate skins. As best as we can get them.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Wolowski, Bf109 late Versions Camouflage & Markings has 2-view artwork for this plane. Interpretation by Mr. Wolowski: engine cowl 74/75/76, all other surfaces overall RLM 76 with large blotches of 74 on uppers of wings & tailplane, irregular blotches of 74, 75 and 70 on fuselage,fuselage Balkenkreuz filled with 70. Black trim around exhaust and wingroots. Spinner black, 1/3 white, thin yellow spiral.
White panels on wings inboard of Balkenkreuz. Yellow RVT band

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Hello,

How did they determine the white stripes on the upper wings?

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/search...max-results=50

Photo of the stripes here :)

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Awesome, simply awesome! Thanks for that link!

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Sorry, but IMHO there are no stripes on the wings. This seems a fully wrong assumption if such info is based on the images seen so far.

Especially in the close-up side view from eBay, it is clearly visible that the lighter area on the wing follows the camouflage splinter pattern, so no stripe (which would also have no sense at all), but a light upperside splinter colour...

Also, the fuselage tail band seems an assumption rather than a fact, because such area is not visible on any of the images.

Then, the insignia on the side, besides clearly having a coloured background (and not a white one as on the profile in Wolowsky book) isn't the well known "flying pencil" badge used by Specht and shown here ...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/Specht_fuselage1.jpg

It is thus clear that this isn't the same aircraft of the other two side images, so the Bundesarchiv photographs are clearly relating to "another"AS-engined Bf 109...

Also, the "double chevron" is represented in gray, but could it also be in green (or another colour compatible to that gray hue...).

Last but not least, The thin spiral on the spinner is assumed as yellow with some proofs or it is only a guess...?

As you can see, there are several things that should lead to take such published profiles with much more than a pinch of salt, IMHO...

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Do you know the date of your foto? Is there any previous foto's of Specht's machines before March 1944 that would confirm the 'flying pencil' insignia? Thanks.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Have no precise date available, but such photo should be part of the Bundesarchiv photographic service already shown which illustrates Specht and Kurt Tank near the rudder of the airctaft. The date should be taken from that.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

The date says August 1944. So some time after the fotos in falkeeins blog.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

If it is dated later, then it's curious that there is no trace of any overpainting in that area... a different aircraft?

Also, the presence of the visible cockpit airscoop means that this too is no G-5/AS...

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Perhaps. But I wouldn't so quickly dismiss the other a/c as belonging to Spechts.

Heres one pic with inverted colours, while there is one angle to the stripe, the far side looks straight?

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

None dismiss that possibility. It is a mere fact that apparently these were two different aircraft.

Exactly. The angled outlines clearly shows that this is a part of the splinter camo, not a stripe of any kind.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

My appologies, wasn't accusing a dismissal, perhaps the wrong word I used. Spinter camo is interesting. The very light part would be RLM 76? Darker RLM 74 or 75?

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

As a mere hypothesis, RLM 76 could be a viable option. It wouldn't be the first time that colour was used in a splinter pattern on the wings.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Ferdinando,

Your photo clearly shows the desiccant capsule in the lateral windscreen panel, so this machine is a G-5. In fact, and IMHO, such capsules are the only clue for assertion of this subtype if the W.Nr. is not visible, especially if the Erla-Haube has been retrofitted (like Graf's G-5 of Stab/JG 11 on Graf & Grislawsi A pair of Aces).

As for the set of photos from Bundesarchiv, they are dated August 44 but this is clearly an error, since the third man is the Staffelkapitän of 4./JG 11, Gerhard Sommer, who was KIA on 12 May 44.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Gentlemen,

I'm a little confused by the way this thread developed so I think it might not do any harm if I put in some facts.

First, there is no doubt concerning the WerkNr. 110 064 as this can be clearly seen in a number of photos, one of which is published in our JG 1/ 11 history, Vol. 2, p. 843, photo no. 689.

Next - this series of photos was taken on or around April 8th, 1944, on the occasion of the award of the Knights Cross to Günther Specht. On the rudder of the a/c one can see 30 victory bars - Specht claimed his 29th and 30th victory on February 22nd, 1944, while his 31st followed on September 11th, 1944.

There is a private 8 mm colour movie film showing this a/c from an elevated position, which, blurred as it is, leaves no doubt, that there are no white or any other stripes on the upper wing surfaces; instead it shows quite clearly that this a/c had two strongly contrasting colours on the upper surfaces with rather wavy demarcation lines.

As to the exact colours used on this a/c I will completely refrain from any speculation.

Hope this helps to clarify some points.

Regards

Jochen Prien

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

I am pleased to stand corrected about the desiccant capsule which escaped me :o, so the one with the "flying pencil" should be a G-5/AS after all (I think it should be time that a clear diagram of the pressurized version with Erla hood should appear somewhere - if it has not already - since all the ones I've seen so far shows only how it was with a standard three-piece cockpit. Also an explaination of the presumably "fake" airscoop would be interesting).

If this goes for the photo I sent, the same should apply for the other aircraft shown in the other two images, but we are then having the same problem: did they were two different aircraft or the same shown at different times (remember the different badge in the same position and no signs of overpainting)?

Thanks to the welcome intervention of Jochen I'm glad that the "white bands" on the wings can be safely dismissed. Now the colour of the "double chevron" and the spiral rest to be assessed.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Yes, Mr. Prien provided some very valuble information. Very much appreciated! And for the ivan for bringing up the desiccant capsule. And veltro for making me think :) We now know they are G-5/AS. Judging by Günther Specht's expression and body position in the foto veltro provided, to mean he looks excited about his 'new' badge. perhaps an overpaint.

New rendition of the G-5 in question. Getting closer perhaps?

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Glad to be of help, but those two are not the same aircraft.

Even the mottles in the cockpit area are different...and I still can't see any trace of overpainting.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Could be shadows, or lots of other artifacts. I can't say one way or the other without more facts. You are always a huge help in matters like these my friend.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

This maybe presumptuous but is it possible to get a discription of the camouflage, and maybe a diagram. I undrestand its a private film so you dont have to take stills but it would be good to fill in the blanks on how this aircraft really looked. :)

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Hello Guys,

may I add a few toughts to this topic?

As Jochen said, Werknummer 110064 was a G-5 from Erla-Leipzig with first BAL acceptance on 10. Jan. 1944. As Leipzig built no AS-aircraft at that time, it presumably was a regular G-5 with DB 605 A engine.

The color of the fixed canopy is of a bright pale shade, as is most of the airframe. The darker colors are painted on very crudely and they avoid the markings. This is typical for AS-engined aircraft from Erla-Antwerpen, which were delivered in 76 all over and sometimes got more camo only at unit-level. For that reason, the splinter-camo on the wings have an unusually bright (76) background color.

It takes some time to repair a damaged aircraft. I don’t think, that WNr 110064 was delivered to Luftwaffe, damaged and then then put to repair at Erla-Antwerpen. The time-frame from early Jan to early April is simply too short. I assume the newly built G-5 was sent directly from Leipzig to Antwerpen for installing the AS-engine, which was not unique btw. Perhaps Rasmussen can help us with this issue.

At Antwerpen they did not only change the engine. They also attached a new Erla-canopy, indicated by the tubular frame at the rear cockpit. And they got rid of the equipment for pressurizing the cabin. To ventilate the now sealed cabin, they added those air-scoops beneath the forward canopy-frame. And they added also small rectangular flaps in the fuselage directly under the cockpit. These flaps ("Belüftungsklappe" in Ersatzteilliste) were moveable from the inside and could be opened to improve airflow. They were regular items on non-pressurized Gustavs. Both features are clearly recognizable on the foto. And finally they rebuilt the GM-1-device as to deliver MW-50, which is clear from the “C3”-triangle.

As Luftwaffe was not happy with the cabin of the G-5s, at some later date it war ordered to dismantle the compressor for recycling. I do not know, whether the Baureihenbezeichnung of such aircraft was changed from G-5 to G-6. But I don’t think so, as in spite of lacking the compressor, the airframe itself remained different in many ways to G-6. As for Spechts aircraft, I’ll tend to the Baureihenbezeichnung ”G-5/U2 AS”

And last, a notice for my friend Veltro: A moveable part of the canopy, very similar to the Erlahaube was developed for the pressurized Me 209 H. As the 209 H never appeared and late Bf 109 did not need this feature, IMHO it never got to series-production. AFAIK the few AS-engined Bf 109s which needed the pressurized cabin for some reason kept their old-style canopy.

Great topic, please carry on.

Carl

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Great post, Carl!

First of all, AFAIK, you are the first who are shedding some light on the G-5/AS version, and considering that "only" 65 years have passed, it is no small fact...

With what you have written we can safely assume that in practice, the G-5/AS was nothing but "upgraded" to G-6/AS standards, by removing any pressurization capability.

This is perfectly coherent with what reported so far, i.e. that technically the plane(s ?) flown by Specht had a G-5 Werke Nummer, but did show no pressurization possibilities (evidenced by the cockpit airscoop which I underlined and which you clearly explained how and why it was applied and by the fact that no Erla hood with pressurization capabilities did exist), in fact being much more a G-6 than a G-5.

Many thanks also for the precious details on camouflaging which shows once again how to know production details often allows to know how this affected their painting and final look.

Six concise paragraphs to bring Bf 109 research one step beyond... a fantastic result IMHO!

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Often it was the final BAL acceptance. Many so-called "Werksflüge" or acceptance flights were in the two weeks (roundabout) before this date.

Not "presumably" but for sure ...

This practise (the all over RLM 76 camo) is nice to see on pictures in the Jean Dillen - book on p.138, 146, 148 (... the pictures are bad but it seems all AS-machines). It was the normal painting of machines when they were flown and tested in Leipzig.

Your supposition is correct ... the new built a/c's were transfered to Antwerpen directly - sometimes on air, sometimes on train (I'd guess with the RLM 76 - factory camo).

Best regards
Rasmussen

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

The magic Erla duo has hit again... :bow:

Carl and Jörg, thanks very much on behalf of those interested to the Bf 109.

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Great posts and awesome information here gents!

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

.

addendum:

Such an designation I hadn't found --- the "Industrielieferplan Umbauprogramm SoA F 2" from 06.August 1944 (for example) mentioned an G-5/AS and an G-5/R2/AS (... and an G-6/U2/AS). Erla itself didn't use the designation "G-5/U2" (IIRC).

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Great, simply great!

Thank you both so much, Jörg and Ferdinando: Bf 109 research at it's highest level

Cheers
Marc

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Don't forget Carl ... :)

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Everybody in this thread deserves a huge thank you! :D This type of information is absolutely priceless!

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Au Wei!

Sorry Carl!
When will the three of you put together your knowledge in an authoritative late-war Bf 109 book? That'll do my day;-)))

And thanks to you Oberst, for starting the ball rolling.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Gunther Specht's Bf 109G-5/AS, W.Nr.110 064
 

Hello all,

I have 3 questions;

1. Has the yellow RVD band ever been confirmed?
2. Has the yellow lower cowl ever been confirmed?
3. Has the iron cross ever been confirmed as being painted
On the cowl?

Thanks in advance.