Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi guys

Does anyone know the identity of Flt Sgt Payne who flew with 501 Squadron in France 1940, claiming 5 victories. He has been variously mentioned in publications as Jimmy and 'Jammy', and also by the initials 'A', 'A.D.' and 'A.E.'

Chris Shores in Aces High states that he was not the A.D. Payne who served with 610 and 74 Squadrons during the Battle of Britain.

From the photograph of him that has appeared in several publications, he looks to be an older man so was very probably a pre-war senior NCO type. He survived France and may well have gone into Training Command.

Any ideas?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi Brian,

you are correct, the A.D.Payne of 501 was clearly an older man as his photo in Listemann's 501 history shows while the photo of the other A.D.Payne of 74 and 610 shown in Ken Wynn's "Men of the Battle of Britain" is years younger and anyhow bears no resemblance.
Strange that both should have Alec as their first name too!

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi Bruce

Thanks for that. I wasn't aware that 'our' man was Alec Payne!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

I know everyone says that they are not the same.. But is it possible the photo's have been mis identified??


Re Sgt. A.D. Payne 745798 - Firstly I cannot find this Service Number in Air 78 for any Payne

No hits on 745798 on London Gazette

based on this service number he would probably be a pre war RAF VR Pilot

740000 to 759999 Issued Jan 1937 RAFVR Pilots

I have seen him called Alec Dawson Payne NOTE: Not Alexander but Alec..

FreeBMD has: Births Jun 1920

Payne Alec D Mother Maidenname: Lawson Croydon 2a 55 - Would make him 20 in 1940 - So a young man, not an old man

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi,

From Ken Wynn's "Men of the Battle of Britain" :-

Alec Dawson Payne 745798 pilot Sgt. 610 Sq.

Born Croyden. RAFVR . Began flying training 19 E&RFTS Gatwick 9/7/39, solo 18/7/39.
Mobilised 6/9/39 training at 1 ITW Cambridge, RAF Yatesbury andposted to RAF Montrose 9/6/40. To 7 OTU Sept 40 , to 610 Sq.23/9/40 thence to 74 Sq 3/12/40.

In light of the above this Payne could not have been with 501 Sq in France in May and June 1940, The photo of Payne with 501 is with a group of pilots in France in May and appears in several Books and is clearly older than 20. The photo of Payne in Wynn's book looks like a 20 year old and is a different person

The obvious error is giving both pilots the same service number!

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Bruce mystery remains btw W/O Alec Dawson Payne died December 2010

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi Bruce & Paul

Yes, the mystery remains!

At least Bruce has proved that Alec Payne of 610/74 Squadrons is not 'our' man.

So just who was Jammy Payne?

PS: I have just learned that Alec Payne (of 610/74 Squadrons) crashed on take-off in May 1941 and was seriously injured. He did not return to operational flying but was granted, in 1942, A2B category which meant that he could resume non-operational flying limited to under 20,000 feet.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Sgt Alec Dawson Payne 745798 Hit a lorry on take off day on at 2232 hrs on 23rd May 1941 in Spitfire IIa P8265 at Gravesend while with 74 Sqn and was seriously injured.

I next pick him up at 111 Sqn at Bone where as a Warrant Officer, he landed on wrong runway, starboard undercarriage collapsed on 12th December 1942 in Spitfire Vb EP773 on a Test Flight. Aircraft Cat B

Finally I track him down to an incident to Spitfire EP651 of 303 Sqn, when as a Warrant Officer he had an undercarriage failure, category AC on 6th July 1944.

Finally he had a claim of a Me109 destroyed on 2nd February 1941 with 74 Sqn

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Guys

I am still not happy with the "solution" about two individuals.

We have one A.D. Payne (no service number), 501 Sq in France
Aces High (Flight Sergeant), score
11.5.40 He 111 (Shores/Foreman, check)
12.5.40 He 111 (Shores/Foreman, check)
14.5.40 He 111 (Shores/Foreman, check)
15.5.40 Do 17 (Shores, check; Foreman, no)
5.6.40 Bf 110 (Shores/Foreman, check)
Vanish into thin air, Shores says not the same man as in BoB

Men of the Battle of Britain (First printing, have not the issue Bruce got)
We have Alec Dawson Payne(service number 745798), Flight Sergeant.
Claims Payne was with 501 Sq in France, etc, and says posted 610 Sq 23.9.40. Claims
2.2.41 Bf 109 (Shores, no; Foreman, check)
Vanish into thin air

a) If we imagine that the photo of the "old" Payne is misidentified, we have (from the second hand sources I use) no proof we are talking about two persons! That is the photos in Listemann's and Wynn's books are of no value.
b) The new details in Wynn's book (second updated issue?) listed by Bruce does not automatically free our Payne from any service with 501 Sq. All we read is about his moblisation in 1939 which to me makes it more likely he was a fully trained reserve pilot and as such should be issued to an operational squadron or at least an OTU for some time and I find the details supplied by Wynn rather confusing! A trainee who goes solo after 9 days in July 1939 is sent to 1 ITW when war breaks out and is spending over one year in training until posted to an operational squadron while his country is screaming for pilots? More likely he spent time with 1 ITW for a while before being posted...
c) All other posts after that only relates to post BoB service of Payne and has no relevance to identify if we have one or two individuals.

So the question, to me, still remains if we are dealing with one or two individuals here. If anyone can enlighten me to what happened to the four or five victory Payne with 501 Sq and thereby ensure he cannot be the Payne of 610/74 Sq, I would be much obliged. I would also be interested to know why the "second" Payne spent 14 months in training from July 1939 to September 1940 before being posted to an operational Squadron.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Stig

I actually agree with you, I believe that it is possible that 501 Sqn 'Payne' mis-identified in photos


Paul

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi,
here is the original picture from "Ginger Lacey Fighter Pilot" by Bickers, also appears in Watkins book on 501 "Fear Nothing" clearly this man is nearer 30 than 20. The Flight Seargent stripes and crown are clearly visible. As Wynn gives a detailed account of the other Payne's 1939/40 activities I personally feel sure these are 2 different men.
Cheers,
Bruce Lander

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Thanks Bruce

Since you are still one up on me (I don't have your issue of Men of the Battle of Britain by Wynne) I have nothing to compare with. Is it possible to get a scan of the "younger" Payne as well?

Also the distance photo you have of "old" Payne is this
a) The same photo published everywhere, including Listeman's work?
b) 100% he is correctly identified?

If they are two individuals, it IS rather strange that "old Payne" has no service number and manage to disappear completely while "young Payne" is very slowly passing through to become a fighter pilot. If this had been from early 1938 to mid 1939 training period I would have understood, but the political situation went from bad to worse during this time, and at least I thought RAF were getting into gear from mid 1939 or so with their training schedule.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi guys

Yes, I tend to go along with this conclusion.

It's surprising, though, that Payne was not decorated for his 4/6 victories.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi Stig & Brian,

here is the photo from the 2nd edition of Wynn's book. Also in 1939/40 the rank of F/Sgt would have been a rank for an older NCO rather than Sgt.
Cheers
Bruce Lander

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Thanks Bruce

Have to admit there is not much resemblance between the two individuals....:o

So if they were not the same, what on earth happened to our "old" Payne from France? Somehow it now begins to look like he never came back and that this for some reason went unrecorded....

I simply have to admit I am not very happy without knowing what happened to Jammy. Obviously Shores is just as puzzled and finds him just as mysterious... (see his latest comments in Aces High Vol 2 from 1999)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi Stig,

Mason in "Battle Over Britain" lists Jammy Payne as still on 501sqd as of 01 July 1940 !!!
The younger Payne was born in June 1920 in Croyden ! (see Free BMD site)

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi guys

I believe the pilot in the group photo has been misidentified! Therefore only the one Alec Payne!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi Brian, Stig,

I suppose that it really doesn't matter too much if the pic in France of 501 pilots mis-identifies Payne the fact remains that there was a "Jammy" Payne in France with 501 who got several victories but he was NOT Alec D Payne of 610/74. - So who was he? were his initials A.D. even?
Does the 501 ORB give any clues?

The mystery remains !!!

Cheers

Bruce Lander

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Not of terribly much use, but has anyone gone back over pictures of 501 Sqn personnel at the time this photo was taken with the "older Payne" to see whether it is a misidentification? It might be possible therefore to see that the older Payne was in fact another member of the squadron.

Cheers,

Tim

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi,
From "Britain at War" March 2011 some more info (see attached) on the younger A.D. Payne.
Cheers
Bruce Lander

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Just found out there was a Flt Sgt Payne in 29 Sqn in early 1930'a you reverted back to his trade on completion of his service I wonder if this is our man especially as a photo of him shows him to be much older than others in 501 Sqn at time

Paul

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Sorry I am very new to this. "Jammy Payne" was my wife's grandfather, born in 1900 and died in 1949. We are researching his records and hope to come back with more information soon. His initials were not A. D. but in fact A. A. (Alfred Alexander)

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Default
My favourite for Payne now is F/Sgt Alfred Alexander Payne 90601 the reason for this is purely circumstantial but

1) The old posting from 2010 quotes him as 'A A Payne' no source I know but interesting none the less

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/2396...adron-1939-40/

2) I know he was a Flight Sgt in France 1940 with 501 Sqn as I have seen a photo of him and he is ranked such

3) He is on 1st January, 1941 MiD List

4) I guessed at some point from Summer 1940 he as made up to W/O. He is in the Sept 1941 AFL as A A Payne with Graduation date 1 Apr 1941

All guesses work I know but I think he is a good candidate

Paul

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Paul,

The London Gazette shows a W/O Alfred Alexander Payne being commissioned to F/O on 9 Jan. 1945. However his NCO service number is given as 91018 (officer 56355). Is this the same individual?

Tom

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

This is him

91018 F/Sgt. Alfred Alexander Payne

Service Number between 90601 93600 RFC UK Civilians 01-Aug-1917 30-Sep-1917

He is RAF Muster Roll 1918 so born around 1901 ?

Rank Boy
Organisation Royal Air Force
Trade Boy
Rank (Army / Navy) Boy
Trade (Army / Navy) Boy Service

Prisoner of war No
Join date August 9th 1917
Pay shillings 1
Terms of enlistment O.E.



bMD register Births Dec 1900 (>99%)

Payne Alfred Alexander Medway 2a 630

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Wouldn't 40 be very old for a SNCO pilot in the BofB? He would be twice as old as the vast majority of his contemporaries

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Chris

If you look at a picture of him here in posting #11 Bruce Lander's you can see he is much older than all the other NCO's of the Sqn who are about 20

I have been mulling this over.. Bill Wilkinson described Payne as a "senior pilot" and that his family had moved fromto Bognor Regis at the outbreak of the war, which implies that he may have had a child or children.

I have assumed Senior was in Rank, but it occurred to me it may have been age. I also have a theory why not W/O by 1940. However, he died in Chichester which is near Bognor Regis and he had family (I believe may have had up to 4 children)

Maybe he called "Jammy" because he was on Ops at the age when most of his other colleagues of a same age and experience would be instructing some where or other. It would also explain why an ace with 5 kills NOT operational during BoB. Basically, he should never of been on ops in BoF in first place!

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Payne was not on 501 Sqn (as far as I can see) prior to them arriving in France, I can see him being asked to ferry a replacement Hurricane to France (in May 1940 - I believe he could have been on 92 Sqn) and he just hung around and ended up on Ops - I could see why he was called 'Jammy' by his fellow pilots and maybe this it why it has been so hard to identify him. Chris Shore in Aces High Vol 1 and 2 could not positively ID him. Probably the most noticeable 'Unknown Ace' left of 1940

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

According to the Free BDM website he was born in 1900 in Medway, Kent.

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Tom

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

"Jammy" Payne was certainly on 501 Sq on the day it arrived in France. According to "Kenneth Hawkeye Lee" by Nick Thomas and also "No 501 Squadron" by Phil Listemann on May 10th a section comprising F/O A.D.Pickup (L.2037 SD-L); F/O M.F.C.Smith (L.1949 SD-O) and F/Sgt.Payne (L.1866 SD-P) on sector patrol became separated and Pickup engaged a Do.17 shooting it down.

Bruce Lander

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Bruce

You are right, he must have been one of the 16th Pilots who flew out of Tangmere to Betheniville on May 10th 1940

I have a list of the following NCO pilots who were in the Sqn from Jan to June 1940. This may not be 100% complete



Jan 1940
Sgt Douglas Barker Crabtree #740434 Injured 11th May 1940 later #125730 Bombay L5813
Sgt Hugh Charles Adams #741254 Injured 11th May 1940 --> Hugh Charles Adams #85645 6th Sept. 1940.
Sgt James Harry Lacey #740042 DFM & Bar 'Ginger' -> later #60321
Sgt Donald Alistair Stewart McKay #740115 Service Number later 113322
Sgt William Harry Whitfield #740692 <-- Killed 11th May 1940 landing France "271 Sqn" -> 501 Sqn
Sgt Robert Chippindall Dafforn #740804 -> Later Commissioned #81674
Sgt Paul Casewell Powe Farnes #741447 Wing Commander (SGT) P C Farnes 501 DFM later 88437

Apr 1940
Sgt David Ian Kirton #550500 His first squadron posting was to 501 at Tangmere on 27th April but this proved a short stay as he went to 65 Squadron, equipped with Spitfires, at Hornchurch on 5th May KIA Aug. 8, 1940

May 1940 "11 Airmen Pilots at 31 May"
Sgt Percy Frederick Morfill #564749 DFM later #47655
F/Sgt Alfred Alexander Payne #90601 MiD
Sgt John Ernest Proctor #563641 Service Number : 44131 --> later DFC
Sgt John Eric Loverseed #907964 AFC
Sgt Arthur Owen Lewis #566649 Claim 27th May 1940 "Killed June 8th 1940" Hurricane P3347 SD-N Sgt Lewis

July 1940
Sgt Frederick John Powell Dixon #742124 Killed 11th July 1940

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

I note a mix of RAFVR pilots 74nnnn and a few numbers of RAF boy/aircraft Apprentices that gained their wings.

Loverseed is interesting as he is technically RAFVR from Sept 1939 and it would have been a challenge for him to be operational by May 1940 , however he was a pre-war RAF officer pilot who few for the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War. He was then removed from RAF reserve. He rejoined RAF as NCO in Nov 1939

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi guys

Possibly Jammy took the place of a junior and inexperienced 501 Squadron NCO (hence the reason that some were aboard the ill-fated Bombay) for the flight to France?

Just a thought

Cheers
Brian

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

As an aside, Paul's listing of NCO pilots appears to solve another 501 mystery man. Namely Arthur Owen Lewis. In the past he has been listed as "A. A. Lewis." The Watkins/Listemann book has him so listed without further detail. Further both Brian Cull in First of the Few and Norman Franks in RAF Fighter Command Losses, Vol. 1 show "Sgt. A. A. Lewis" as MiA on 08 June 40 in Hurricane I P3347 (SD-N). However as both point out he is not listed by the Commonwealth War Graves Commision, nor is Arthur Owen Lewis. Interestingly, his loss in not noted by Watkins & Listemann, nor is it found in Peter Cornwell's The Battle of France Then and Now.

I have found him listed as a PoW on the RAF Commands website listing:

357 47913 Lewis A O 566649 RAF

Tom

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

I know we are going off piste but can confirm that Sgt A O Lewis was lost with 501 Sqn on 8 Jun 40 near Decima (?). However, first note of being POW did not come until 6 Feb 41 when he wrote to his father saying he was at Eughien (?) in Belgium. Official confirmation came 25 Mar 41 when he was in Stalag Luft 2

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hallo,

Not sure if this has been posted already but the AIR 81 file for Sgt. A.O. Lewis is number 829. The Hurricane serial is not listed on the index and unfortunately, in my limited experience of AIR 81 files, if a serial is not shown on the index it usually is not contained in the body of the file.

'Decima' was the RAF codename for Echemines airfield in the 'South Champagne area' of France. (From the AIR 35/63 file at Kew).

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Jammy Payne was my grandfather, father to my father Alec payne who also served in the RAF in 81 Squadron. My father is 87 years old and his father jammy Payne was indead the oldest fighter pilot in the Battle of Britain. The D.A entry is incorrect as his name was Alfred Alexander Payne, some how we don't know how but his initials have been entered incorrectly which is annoying as at the Battle of Britain monuments his initials are scribed in incorrectly also. I will get my father to post more info now we are members of this forum.
Brad Payne

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Hi,
From the book "One Pilot's War" by W.A.Wilkinson;:- On 15 th June the
Author (who had joined 501 as a new Sgt Pilot on 22 May) flew a barely flyable Hurricane from Caen to Tangmere with 3 other u/s Hurricanes led by
Senior pilot F/Sgt "Jammy" Payne on arrival they were greeted by S/Ldr.G.Lott of 43 Sq and briefly attached to that unit (Lott and Payne being old acquaintances) after 3 days leave the author and "Jammy" rejoined 43 but were then ordered to fly 2 Hurricanes to Croyden to rejoin 501. Between then and July 4th when 501 moved to Middle Wallop several of the original pilots were posted to OTU's "Jammy" probably being one of them.

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Bruce


Thanks or that

Alsoo, there is a picture of 91018 F/Sgt. Alfred Alexander Payne in Geoffrey Wellums “First Light” so he must have either been on 92 Sqn at some time or he was on the same station. I think this was at Croydon ?


Wellum joined 92 Sqn May 1940, and Payne was in France by 11th May so this must have been AFTER the Battle Of France -

So "rejoined 43 but were then ordered to fly 2 Hurricanes to Croyden to rejoin 501. Between then and July 4th when 501 moved to Middle Wallop several of the original pilots were posted to OTU's "Jammy" probably being one of them."

He was in photo with P/O John Samuel Bryson and Sgt Peter Raoul Eyles

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...=payne&f=false


Bryson was killed 24th Sept 1940 and Eyles on 20th Sept

I suspect he was on 92 Sqn but when ? So the photo had to be taken between June and Sept 1940 but based on email above maybe June to July 1940 if Payne only on 501 at time

So did Payne move to 92 Sqn or was he in photo when he shared field while with another Sqn

Wellums account I think suggest Payne on 92 Sqn



Would indicate that Paynes was either in 92 Sqn at a time or 501 Sqn at Croydon

Re: Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940
 

Brad

I hope you see this


I don't suppose you have the Service history or Log Book of your grandfather 91018 F/Sgt. Alfred Alexander Payne and can tell us where he served in May to Oct 1940 ?

I note your father Alec served in 81 Sqn 1952-55

Many thanks

Paul