Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hi guys

Re-reading Armand van Ishoven's The Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain (1998 softcover version) there is an account on pages 32-34 of a ZG26 Oblt ditching his Bf110 in the Channel, and subsequent rescue.

Has the crew been identified (and date)?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Brian,

If you can give some details of the account we might find a candidate....

John

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Herbert Kaminski and his Bordfunker Unteroffizier Strauch are possible candidates however Kaminski was a Hauptmann at the time of their ditching on 18 August 1940.

They were subsequently rescued from the Channel.

Jeremy

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Likewise Kogler on I think 11 Aug 40

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hello,

This may very well relate to the series of photos apparently taken with a powerful telephoto lens from (apparently) the Pas-de-Calais, and which were published in the magazine "Signal" at the beginning of Oct, 1940. There are something like 18 images showing a Spitfire chasing a Bf110C of I./ZG26 with the code either U8+GH or U8+GL (two white victory flashes on the fin). After the Bf110 ditches, the crew is rescued from the water by a He59 with the codes NE+??, which I believe was a SNFlKdo 3, a/c (out of Bouglogne). The Bf110C does not have a white nose, so this is almost certainly in August of 1940.

I'd dearly like to ID this photo sequence, which may, in fact, also match the story in van Ishoven's book. The problem with Kogler is that his story doesn't match the photo sequence. Nor does any other Bf110C loss to I./ZG26 (thin white rear fuselage band used only by that unit during that time). So either the story about Kogler is wrong, or it was someone else. This is an enduring mystery to me that has frustrated me for 20 years.

Here is our EOE Luft Loss DB entry for Kogler:

"Aug 11, 1940: 1./ZG26 Messerschmitt Bf110D-0. Both engines disabled in attack by fighters and ditched in sea 40 km north-east of the Thames Estuary 12.10 p.m. FF Hptmn Johann Kogler (Staffelkapitän) and BF Uffz Adolf Bauer both wounded – took to dinghy, rescued by E-boats off Nieuport, and admitted to hospital in Brussels. Aircraft 100% write-off."

Here is the report on Kaminski, which is the wrong Staffel for the photos and the timing doesn't fit either the photo sequence or the van Ishoven account:

"Aug 18, 1940: 2./ZG26 Messerschmitt Bf110C-2. Damaged in combat with fighters during bomber escort sortie and ditched in the Channel off Dunkirk 5.30 p.m. FF Hptmn Herbert Kaminski (Staffelkapitän) and BF Uffz Heinrich Strauch both took to dinghy unhurt - rescued by Seenotdienst four days later and landed at Dunkirk. Aircraft 100% write-off."

Hope we can resolve the identity of the crew in both van Ishoven's story and the photo sequence, which is one of the most dramatic for that period of the war.

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hello,

Here is the text of van Ishoven's account requested above:

"Seenot
Air~Sea Rescue
Pg 32-34

“..…What it felt like to have to ditch into the Channel and to be rescued by an aircraft is recounted by an Oberleutnant of ZG26 who had to ditch his Messerschmitt Bf110: ‘It was a formidable experience. A white trail of smoke marked the downward path of a Hurricane that we had raked with our machine guns. But now English fighters were climbing upwards to intercept the German bomber group, which was steering a course towards an airfield south of London. The bombers, however, were able to continue on their way unmolested as German fighters attacked the enemy aircraft like a pack of ravenous wolves. Thwarted by our Messerschmitts the disappointed Spitfire and Hurricane pilots wanted to obtain at least one visible result and the last German aircraft, our Messerschmitt Bf110, became the objective for the British aircraft.
‘The enemy surrounded us on every side and we saw gun flashes to right and left. We shot at the enemy whenever possible but they were too many. Their bullets cracked and banged in our fuselage. The dinghy was already shot to ribbons. This could not go on any longer; we began to lose height. To bale out would mean captivity. If only we could reach the channel!
‘As if our aircraft had guessed my thoughts, the left engine suddenly came to life. The altimeter remained about zero, but, all along jumping from cloud to cloud, the Messerschmitt bf110 flew home above enemy territory at some 230km/h. And there, at last, the sea glistened, the last hurdle. But this hurdle was to be our destiny. Shortly before the coast that would have saved us, an accident happened. The engine conked out. Our machine divided down towards the water.
‘Canopy away! We threw away the canopy and were surrounded by fire, then suddenly water, unbelievable amounts of water. I don’t know what happened exactly, anyway we succeeded in getting free from the machine; maybe we were thrown out, maybe the water snatched us from our seats. It lasted only a few seconds, which I cannot describe, then we were swimming in the Channel, both of us side by side near the French coast which was only 500m away.
‘But now disaster threatened. An upward glance showed how the sinking aircraft’s stabilizer was slowly coming towards us. Swim for heaven’s sake, swim… We took off our flying boots and then, with a few heavy puffs, our life jackets inflated. They supported us while the machine sank. But the coast was still some way off and the water was cold and the current was carrying us away from land. My wireless operator had a good idea – he fired a flare from his Very pistol. That saved us. German fighters saw us in the water and four Messerschmitts circled above us. Despite the cold, the wireless operator and I smiled at each other – even if we were exhausted and injured. The fighters signaled a Seenotmaschine which came and took us aboard a short time later.’
Van, Ishoven Armand. The Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain. London: Ian Allen, 1980. Print."

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hi guys

Very confusing to say the least.

How about the Bf110 (3263) of III/ZG26 lost on 25 September 1940? Crew unnamed and therefore uninjured. I'm referencing John Vasco & Peter Cornwell's excellent Zerstorer.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Well Kaminski can definately be ruled out.

In addition to Larry's comments Kaminski and his wireless operator were in the "drink" for a few days before being rescued and his ditching is fairly well chronicled in terms of the events/ditching. If memory serves Kaminski noted having his nose broken on the bridge of the cockpit upon hitting the water due to not being completely straped in, a product of a previous, but unhealed wound from the battle in France.

Jeremy

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hello,

In the hopes of furthering the identification of this dramatic incident, I'm posting here five photos from the Oct 1, 1940 edition of "Signaal" (the Dutch edition of "Signal" Magazine). There are a total of 17 photos in this sequence, from the Bf110C appearing in the distance (photo #1) with smoke trailing behind it and a Spitfire circling overhead. The plane gets lower and lower and finally ditches (Photo #2) in a huge spray of water. The crew is then seen struggling to get out of the cockpit as the tail raises (Photo #3) in the air above the two men. The plane then sinks with the tail almost coming down on top of the two men struggling in the water (Photo #4) then disappears from sight. Then an He59 a/c from the Seenotflugkommando (Code NE+??) comes into view, circles, lands near the two men and taxies to them (Photo #5). The two men then swim to the back of the aircraft where a crewmen comes down the rear ladder and helps them aboard. I've only attached highlight photos with the rest filling in the story between these.

After careful study of this account, I'm almost certain that this rescue is described by the van Ishoven account I posted above. This has to be after the SNFlKdo a/c were camouflaged in late July/early August, and before the Bf110Cs of I./ZG26 were painted with white noses around the beginning of September, 1940. The date of publication is consistent with an August, 1940, event. If the incident is the same, we know that the a/c is either U8+GH or U8+GL of 1 or 3./ZG26 (white I./ZG26 rear fuselage band and white or yellow "G.") The plane carried 2 victory bars and the pilot was probably the unidentified Oblt of the van Ishoven account. The aircraft was obviously a 100% loss, but there is no known incident in late July or August to the beginning of Sept., 1940, that fits all the evidence for this incident. There are probably no more than four Oblt., including possibly two StaKap , serving at this time in 1 or 3./ZG26. The two victory bars would probably ID the pilot if we had complete records for victory claims by pilots of those two squadrons, which we do not. Note that Kogler was a Hptm, so that seems to eliminate him; might have been his temporary replacement though. So who can solve this mystery?

I'd also certainly like to find a source for better quality images of these photos for publication in the EOE Vol 4 (Vol I for the BoB), if anyone knows a source for these.

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hello!
In John Weals book "Me 110 Zerstörer aces of ww2" it says that the pilot of the pictures above is Fw. Jakob Birndorfer from 6./ZG 76. Whether it is true or not i don´t know.

Best wishes

Christian

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Brian,
III./ZG 26 Bf 110s never carried the small white ring around the rear fuselage.

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hi John

I hoped you would join the discussion.

Actually, I did not suggest that the Bf110 in the picture sequence was the aircraft in which I am interested! My interest is the crew mentioned in the ditching/rescue per the reproduced account.

My suggestion is that it might have been the aircraft of III/ZG26 lost on 25 September, for which we have no crew indentification. Any ideas?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Brian,

Peter Cornwell and John Vasco, both experts on the Bf110 have both looked at this issue in the past and have not found a resolution. As John points out, this can only be a I./ZG26 aircraft due to the white ring on the rear fuselage, which is diagnostic to that unit during the BoB period. III./ZG26 did not carry such a marking. I entirely dismiss the identification of this as a ZG76 aircraft/crew for the same reason.

Perhaps one small additional clue to help ID this incident may be the comment that both crewmen were injured, so there may be a casualty report somewhere in the German system if the injuries were serious enough. There is no surviving KTB for I./ZG26 for this period, at least that I know of, in the hands of the BA. Perhaps reporting at a higher level might detect this loss, which appears to have been missed in the German QM records. I've tried to get at this one through the SNFlKdo records, but the existing KTB for SNFlKdo 3 (covers the eastern channel area) at the BA does not start until 05-09-40, which is too late for this incident. The SNFlKdo 2 KTB for the BoB, covering the central channel area out of Cherbourg, does begin on Aug 12th and goes to mid-December, 1940, but we have this and the He59 NE+?? does not appear as an aircraft in their records, and it records the unit codes of pretty much all of their aircraft active on operations during this period. So, it appears, with the missing time frame for SNFlKdo 3, where I would expect this rescue to be documented somewhere in the mid-August time frame, we're not going to find the answer unless someone comes up with some of that unit's records stretching back to the beginning of the BoB. If anyone knows of such records, I'd certainly like to hear from them. Not only is this incident not documented but there are numerous other ditchings by Bf109s, with pilots being subsequently rescued by the He59s, for which the German QM records do not provide identification of the pilots. These missing SNFlKdo3 records would likely fill in many missing details for these 109s during July/August, 1940, perhaps including unknown pilot's names.

One other possible way to solve this would be if we can find a crewmen's Flugbuch from I./ZG26 for the respective period that mentions something about this incident. At the moment, I'm not aware of any FB records that would solve this mystery.

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hi Larry

You, too, misunderstand my quest!!

I am endeavouring to establish the author of the account that appears in van Ishoven's book (which you have kindly reproduced). I believe this may have been the ditching that occurred on 25 September 1940.

As far as I am aware, this was NOT the ditching filmed. Or do you know otherwise?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hptm. Kogler spent 4 days in his dinghy also before being rescued.

J.

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Brian,

I've carefully studied the circumstances of the account and the photos, and I'm convinced that they relate to the same incident.

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

According to Kogler, he was picked up 3 days later off Nieuport

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Brian,

Here is what we have in the EOE DB on the Sept. 25, 1940 incident:

"III./ZG26 Messerschmitt Bf110C-4 (3263). Crashed in the Channel during combat with RAF fighters south of Weymouth during escort sortie for KG55 attack on Filton 12.00 p.m. Crew rescued unhurt by Seenotdienst. Aircraft 100% write-off."

It's not impossible that this incident could be the van Ishoven account. Note however, that the narrative said both crewmen were injured, and this says that they were not. I've read the Heinrich Weiss narrative about this mission, which is quite detailed, but there simply isn't enough information on this ZG26 loss to associate it with the account. As I said above, I find the areas of close agreement throughout the 17 photos and the narrative by the u/i ZG26 pilot extremely compelling and I believe that they relate to the same incident. The photos obviously cannot be of the Sept. 25, 1940 loss. According to Weiss, the search and rescue operations for the crew of this a/c were handled by SNFlKdo 2, flying out of Cherbourg. I've not yet received the KTB pages for Sept 25, 1940, for that unit from the translator and I'll update this post if they provide any support for that account being the incident on the 25th. However, I'm not expecting that to be the case.

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Larry, have you thought about tracing the dates through the He 59? I know of two such aircraft with SNFlKdo 3 - NE+TA and NE+TD. I would tend to discount NE+TA as I have photographic evidence showing it in early August still wearing its 3./906 emblem on the nose. It also did not reach the unit until the 12th. If, in the meantime it was repainted and the 8L and emblem were overpainted, there is nothing in the picture of the aircraft to suggest that. There is, however, what appears to be a faint outline of a shield on the nose but this is not in the same shape as that of 3./906....

Unfortunately I don't have any details on the service history of NE+TD. Perhaps 'Seaplanes' would be able to help out on this?

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hi guys

It would appear from the van Ishoven account that a Hurricane was claimed prior to the ditching. Does this help to identify the crew?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Adam and Brian,

Your additional comments are helpful. Adam, there are several additional photos of the He59 during the rescue, but the quality won't allow a definitive resolution of the full coding on this a/c. NE+TD certainly is a possibility. I hope that "Seaplanes" will jump in here if he has anything to add.

Brian, I'd noted the victory claim. Unfortunately, I've compared the known victory lists for I./ZG26 for the mid-August period, when I think these photos were taken, and almost all of these (11-18 August 1940) are by unknown pilots, and against unknown aircraft types. There is no "Oblt." among the few that are attributed to a specific pilot. However, Hans Ring reconstructed his take on this period with so-called "Turks" (apparently best guess-estimates), but in the several cases that I know of since this was done and subsequent hard info has been developed, these have turned out to be very unreliable (on the order of about 50%). That said, none of the claims listed are for Hurricanes--all are Spitfires, but he does attribute possible victories during this period to Oblt Wilhelm Spies of 1 Staffel (11.08.40, 13.08.40, 18.08.40 {Eng Jäger}); Oblt. Johannes Kiel of 3 Staffel (11.08.40, 13.08.40, 18.08.40 {Eng Jäger}); Oblt. Hans-Jürgen Kirchhoff of 3 Staffel (11.08.40, 13.08.40) and Oblt. Karl Fuchs of 3 Staffel (11.08.40). If both the photo sequence and the van Ishoven account are the same incident, it is very likely that one of these four pilots is the "Oblt." referred to in the account. So, if anyone has any info to support one of these four pilots being shot down and rescued from the Channel or being "injured" during this period, he is very likely the pilot of our plane. Besides the unreliability of the "Turks" attribution in general, it should be noted that I./ZG26 was known for very significant over-claiming of victories during this period, as were pretty much all the ZG units.

Brian, although I don't believe that the account will turn out to be the III./ZG26 ditching in the channel on 25.09.40, we have complete German records for the claimed victories of that unit on that day, and one of the two victories, was to an Oblt., Ernst Matthes, a 7 Staffel pilot who reportedly got a Spitfire SW of Bristol. However, I know of no source indicating that Matthes was shot down into the channel and rescued that day. Perhaps John Vasco has some insight into that issue.

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hello,

Further to the possible pilots listed in the post above from our EOE Luftwaffe Loss Data Base, I note that Oblt. Karl Fuchs was KIA in a Bf110D-0 on 13.08.40:

"August 13, 1940: 3./ZG26 Messerschmitt Bf110D-0 (3369). Shot down by Hurricanes of No.56 Squadron during escort sortie for Bf110s of ErpGr.210 and exploded over Warden Bay, Sheppey, 4.05 p.m. Probably one of those claimed by F/O P.S. Weaver. FF Oberlt Karl Fuchs and BF Uffz Willi Ebben both killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.

"Due to the severity of this crash the scattered remains of the pilot, Karl Fuchs, were not recovered for three days and only identified from shreds of clothing. Thus, his date of death is incorrectly recorded as August 16 in the Soldatenfriedhof, Cannock Chase. Site excavated by the Kent Battle of Britain Museum which unearthed an undercarriage leg, cannon firing mechanism, oxygen regulator, oxygen bottles, self sealing fuel tank, first aid kit, various maker’s labels and perspex cockpit side panel bearing red painted angle of dive indicator. All now in Hawkinge Aeronautical Trust collection. Relics from this machine previously held by London Air Museum, now in the Tangmere Military Aviation Museum. Steve Vizard also has parts from the first aid kit, cannon-firing bottles and other relics including Werk plates indicating serial number 3369. Surviving engine recovered in 1984 by Peter Smith."

and Oblt. Hans-Jürgen Kirchhoff was KIA when shot down by RAF fighters in a Bf110D-0 on 18.08.40:

"August 18, 1940: 3./ZG26 Messerschmitt Bf110D-0. Badly damaged by fighters during bomber escort sortie over southern England and crashed in the Channel off French coast 1.40 p.m. FF Oberlt Hans-Jürgen Kirchhoff and BF Lt Berthold Mader (of I/Ln.Rgt.32) both killed. Aircraft 100% write-off."

If the photo series shows an earlier incident involving either of these pilots, it is of note that both were flying replacement aircraft when killed. The photo sequence appears to show a Bf110C in all-green camouflage on the upper surfaces, probably a plane dating back to the original equipment of the unit with Bf110Cs. If either of these pilots was our ditching subject, he couldn't have been very badly injured, nor could Spies or Kiel (if the incident was prior to 18 August), as all were in combat again during the period. The report on Kirchhoff's death indicates that he wasn't flying with his original gunner. This suggests the idea that his regular gunner might have been recently injured in an earlier incident and was therefore unable to fly on the 18th.

Nothing conclusive here, but possibly small pieces of the puzzle.

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Same event depicted in "Der Adler" of 1 Oct 1940.
If I understand correctly, the pics are credited to a Kisselbach of the PropagandaKompanie.
One picture of the low-flying Bf110 has cliffs in the background.
There is at least one motor-boat, with an awful zebra camo, involved in the rescue.
None of the He59 pictures shows the NE+?? code, but one shows the ??+TD code.

One of the pics of the ditched Bf110 with the raised tail appears in
Their Finest Hour : The Story of the Battle of Britain 1940 by Edward Bishop,
the source is given as Sudd. Verlag, (Süddeutscher Verlag in Munich ?)

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

This would then seem to confirm my earlier suspicion that the aircraft in question was HE 59 NE+TD (WNr 1991). Unfortunately I don't have any details pertaining to this machine's service history.

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Udf,

I don't have the 1 Oct 1940 issue of "Der Adler." Do you have a scanner and would it be possible to get a scan of the photo which shows the motor-boat, and the one showing the code ??+TD on the He59? I'm considering that one for a color profile for the EOE Project. Neither of these were in the series in the "Signaal" issue that I have.

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

NE+TD w.n 1991 Ff Fw Kurt Grafe, B Ofw Herbert Roddey, Bf Ogef Gerhard Fischer Bm Fw Rudolf Grimmig missing over Channel in Luftkamf on 11-11-1940. Believed fell to P/O's Barclay and Wells of 249 Sqd. (GQM report dated 13-11-1940 )

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

No scan, only these low-res :

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

udf,

Thanks! That confirms the ID of the He59. There are apparently some photos in the "Der Adler" article that are not in the one in "Signaal." Is there any info in the DA article that gives us any more clues as to the possible date or story of the incident?

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Brian,

Thanks, with this info and the photos sent by udf, this makes a likely candidate for a color profile for SNFlKdo 3 for the August, 1940 period. Obviously still lacking the exact date and info on the crew picked up/plane shot down.

I now have the translation of the SNFlKdo 2 KTB entries for 25-26.09.40 and, although there are several flights and alerts for rescue activities by the unit's He59s, there is no indication of the pick up of a downed Bf110 crew. It does not appear that the unit's aircraft rescued any downed pilots in the channel that day. In re-reading the loss incident:

"Sept. 25, 1940: III./ZG26 Messerschmitt Bf110C-4 (3263). Crashed in the Channel during combat with RAF fighters south of Weymouth during escort sortie for KG55 attack on Filton 12.00 p.m. Crew rescued unhurt by Seenotdienst. Aircraft 100% write-off."

it doesn't actually say that the crew was picked up by an aircraft, but simply "Seenotdienst." That could also mean by a patrol boat or other unit asset besides an He59. Although this doesn't absolutely preclude an He59 rescue by another unit, I think that event is now quite unlikely. This satisfies me that the Sept. 25th incident in NOT the same story as the "Oblt." down in the van Ishoven story, leaving us with an unrecorded or inaccurately reported 1 or 3./ZG26 Bf110 loss for the August, 1940, period.

As we get the available KTBs for channel activity on Sept. 25th, we'll keep an eye out for the possibility that one of the other SNFlKdo units was involved in a Bf110 crew pick up that day.

Regards,

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Thanks Larry

Cheers
Brian

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Larry,
A concise reply to your post 21 regarding Matthes on 25/9/40. We have the photos of his belly-landing back at Cherbourg in 3U+JR.

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Larry,

Have you tried searching under 'Der Adler No 20 - 1 October 1940' you should get the chance to temp. download this edition. The story however, possibbly for dramatic effect, speaks of a third crewman '' Mit Ihm hat ein Tapferer Flieger im nassen Grabe den Heldentod gefunden '' who drowned despite a survivor going back for him. The photo under the headline Tod and Leben seems to indicate a splinter camouflage, if you check this out what do you think,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

In my opinion NE+TD arrived late at Cherbourg probably oct. or nov.

Rémi

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

Hi Remy,

we have the KTB and it was in action already in early September so probably also in August.

Regards

Robert

Re: Oblt ??? of ZG26 Battle of Britain
 

I miss it , it seems, quite stange all are largely traced, only that one missing...