<<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Hello,

Just a few questions about Operation ' Werwolf ' for some research I am doing.

- Did they only use only the stripped down Me 109K-4's?
- At which base(s) did the flights originate from?
- Are there any photo's of the a/c's that were involved?
- Was there actually 8, or 11 heavies brought down by ramming on 7.4.44 (the Palace of Dallas being the most famous)?
- What role did the Me 262 play? Did they fly Top cover or were they much lower trying to divert attention from the 109?

I'm sure I'll have some more questions later. Any information greatly appreciated, and as always, many thanks.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1944
 

7-Apr-45 perhaps? Have you seen the book "The Last Flight of the Luftwaffe" by Adrian Weir?

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1944
 

Yes exactly. 7.4.1945, I fixed. sorry About that. I haven't seen the book, but I heard of it. Been trying to get it from the usual places but they all say 'out of stock'. Thats why I asked questions here. :)

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1944
 

You can get it from Abebooks online.

I had it years ago but wasn't that impressed and it went to a charity shop. He started with one veteran's memories and had to bulk them out to fill a book. I remember it as getting very repetitive when he described each American Group coming under attack — how the German pilot would have seen the [insert Bomb Group tail symbol] filling his windscreen just before impact.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Hello ,

After been rammed over Krummel B24 s/n 43-39126 from the 467BG/ 789BS named “ Sacktime “ broke up in two when they were above A-92 airfield near St-Truiden in Belgium .The entire crew bailed out and were safe.

Regards

Alain57

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

I should add that the Luftwaffe actually called the project »Schulungslehrgang Elbe«, i.e. "Training Course Elbe."

<<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Hello Oberst

No idea of the types used but I would believe that G-14 and G-10 fighters participated as well as K-4 fighters. According to Caldwell and Muller the plan called for the exclusive use of Bf 109 fighters with high-altitude engines and metal propellers. Most of these were lightened by the removal of the radio transmitters as well as all armament except one MG 131 with reduced ammunition. Most also had the Revi 16 gun sight removed to facilitate bailing out. According to figures compiled by Fritz Marktscheffel it appears that a total of 188 fighters were readied for the operation at the main base of Stendal as well as at Salzwedel, Gardelegen, Sachau and Magdeburg and one base outside Prague. Approximately 143 fighters actually took off, 21 returned early due to technical trouble, 15 from Stendal were never given a target and returned to base due to fuel shortage and the 60 fighters from Prague were recalled when the bombers turned north and thus out of range. About 90 fighters contacted the enemy and about 40 actually made ramming attacks. 18 B-17 four-engined bombers were attacked as were three B-24 four-engined bombers as well as three unspecified four-engined types by ramming and one B-17 bomber and one fighter were claimed by machine gun fire. Losses included 18 pilots killed, six missing and 14 wounded. 16 pilots bailed out successfully, two were killed when their parachutes failed to open and four were killed by the Americans while in their parachutes. Another was attacked but survived a hard landing after his parachute was shot up. Known Bf 109 fighter losses were 13 to escorting fighters, three to German Flak, 21 in ramming attacks and 14 in emergency landings after contacting the enemy. It appears that the participating pilots were told that jet fighters would provide top cover but that none of the jet pilots actually knew of this and on that day these engaged bombers as was normal. 59 Me 262 jet fighters from JG 7 and I./KG(J) 54 flew operationally that day and JG 7 claimed one F-4 (P-38) twin-engined reconnaissance aircraft, two P-51 fighters and one B-17 and one B-24 four-engined bombers for no losses while I./KG(J) 54 claimed four B-17 four-engined bombers and lost one fighter to B-17 bomber return fire. It appears that the Eighth Air Force lost a total of 17 bombers and 189 were damaged that day. I hope this helps and any comments or corrections will be appreciated.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

"Auf den Spuren des "Elbe-Kommandos- RAMMJÄGER" by Dietrich Alsdorf (Podzun-Pallas, ISBN 3-7909-0746-4) is also heartly valuable, albeit in German.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

I see, so not to much technical aspect/photos, if any?


So where did 'Operation Werwulf', 'Rammkammando Elbe', & 'Sonderkammando Elbe' come from? I know Elbe is a river in Germany.

Hello Leo!
As usual from you, this is a quality response! Thanks alot :)

Thanks, I'll look for it.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

I have some archival material relating to this action, courtesy of Werner Zell, with whom I was in contact many years ago. PM me if you would like details.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Thanks Leo for your very detailled accound. By the way it is the first time I have seen a so low loss count for German fighters involved in this operation. I have never studied it in details, but it seems to most sources describe it as a far more costlier failure, with more than 100 of the Bf 109 shot down (for example, the German wikipedia I just checked to be sur my memory was correct says that 133 German fighters were lost !). But your data seems far more complete and shows that it almost al (if not all) Elbe pilots that engaged the enemy this day were shot down or forced to crash-land (nothing surprising given their mission and the powerful US escort), they were only about 50.

Best regards

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Leo, I am having trouble with your numbers.

~143 fighters took off
21 returned
15 given no target
60 recalled

That leaves ~47 fighters that made contact.

Where did the other ~53 fighters of the 90 come from?

<<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Hello Kutscha

The figures that I posted are those included in the account of this operation given in The Luftwaffe Over Germany by Caldwell and Muller compiled by Marktscheffel which describes that the fighters from Prague were recalled when the bombers turned north thus putting them out of range but does not give their number. The figure of 60 is sourced from The Last Flight of the Luftwaffe by Weir which gives this approximation for the aircraft based at Prague and recalled. Interestingly, the Caldwell and Muller book mentions that the OKL war diary in a brief summery states that 183 aircraft were prepared for take-off of which 50 returned. 106 pilots had returned by the end of the day claiming 23 victories and 77 others were still missing. If this is true, then could it be that the number of aircraft based at Prague that were recalled was actually about 15 and not 60?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Leo,

Thanks again for the detailed information you provide.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Thanks Leo, that makes more sense.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Is there a list available of Luftwaffe pilot losses for the Elbe operation? There is a DVD from the History Channel in Dogfights Season Two called ''Luftwaffe's Deadliest Mission'' which includes interviews with a few vets. of this mission. The DVD is in the US format which needs a Multi Region player, the DVD is available on E-Bay sometimes.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Dr. Fritz Marktschaftel, who was interviewed by a friend of mine has known him for years asked him some very pointed questions about the channel and their operations, he was very hesitant to work with any TV channel whether US or European as he had been shafted in the past giving his first person account of the aerial engagement in April of 45. Sadly Fritz was correct in his findings. The history channel took into account what THEY wanted to broadcast and did not cover the operations adequately. In fact the channel cut off all the German veterans short in their stories. No word of JG 7 Me 262 operations which were more successful in their ops against B-17's this date. Fritz was very upset bluntly with the way the episode turned out and most probably will not ever be interviewed again.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Hello guys,

this is what I collected on German losses from secondary sources. AFAIK no official wartime report has survived. Most is based on info from Dr. Fritz Markscheffel who to my knowlegde was the first one to write about german "Selbstopferer" in the mid 1980s. "Unbekannt" stands for "name not known". As the information is not yet cross-checked, it should be regarded as provisional only. Some pilots may be not members of Rammkommando Elbe. Any comments, corrections or adds are welcome:

rank-name-chr.name-fate-location-cause

Uffz Henkel Heinrich ? Amelinghausen 10 km SW Lünburg crashed
Lt Rübsam Ernst-Hermann ? Prag-Kletnan landing gear start
Fw Funk Erich kia Raum Einbeck S Hildesheim flak (?)
Gefr Tetzel Ernst wia Demkerbrode bei Hameln flak emerg. landing
Uffz Uhlich Georg kia Raum Einbeck flak (?)
Ogfr Seidel Horst kia Flur Engeausen S Ostenholzer Moor para
Ofhr Böhm Joachim-Wolfgang wia Tripkau N Dannenberg Luftkampf
FjFw Bohnke Gerhard kia Neddenauverbergen bei Stemmer Luftkampf P-47 parachuting
Fhr Evers Herbert kia? Zimmernsupra bei Erfurt Luftkampf
Grüner Franz kia Gemeindewald von Störckendrebber Luftkampf P-51
Uffz Hahn Klaus wia Raum Nienburg-Soltau Luftkampf ramming B-17
Ogfr Harms Hugo kia Nienhagen Luftkampf P-51 emerg. landing
Fw Hedwig Reinhold kia N Stillenhofen Luftkampf P-51
Uffz Körner Walter kia Straße Schneeren - Bolsehle N Steinhuder Meer Luftkampf
Ofw Lindner Werner kia SW Meißendorf/Aller Luftkampf P47 parachuting Ofw Müller Heinz unhurt Apelstedt S Bremen Luftkampf P-47 parachuting
Hptm Müller Hugo unhurt Lüneburg Luftkampf P-51 emerg. landing
Gefr Redmer Johann wia N Lauenburg Luftkampf parachuting
Gefr Ringhofer Rudi wia Hamwarde bei Stade Luftkampf P-51 parachuting
Fhr Schmidt Franz-Josef pow Norddeutschland, Nähe Weser Luftkampf Jäger emerg. landing
FjOfw Schrader Karl-Heinz kia SO Stemmer Luftkampf P-51
Hptm Sorge Ernst unhurt Lüneburg Luftkampf P-51 emerg. landing
unbekannt ? Engehausen Luftkampf P-51
unbekannt kia Soltau nahe Autobahn Luftkampf P51 parachuting
unbekannt kia Wunstorfer Moor Luftkampf P-51
unbekannt kia Wunstorfer Moor Luftkampf P-51
Gefr Walkhoff Herbert mia Bei Stöckendrebber Luftkampf P-51
Uffz Zapp Jakob kia Warmeloh S Schwarmstedt Luftkampf P-51 parachuting Lt Engelhardt Dieter mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Lt Fuhrmann Wolfgang mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Oblt Hansen Olaf mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Lt Messerschmid mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Lt Thiel Armin mia Über Reichsgebiet mia
Lt Löscher Ludwig ? Raum Sachau (?) engine failure emerg. landing
Uffz Pomsel Horst ? Flpl. Lüneburg engine failure emerg. landing
Fw Reichenberger Walter ? unbekannt engine failure emerg. landing
Uffz Römer Hugo ? Leitzkau SO Leipzig engine failure bellylanding
unbekannt ? Flpl. Stendal engine failure parachuting
Gefr Huber Adolf ? unbekannt emerg. landing
unbekannt wia Hötzingen 8 NW Munster emerg. landing
Lt Brökelschen Hans unhurt Scheeren ramming B-17 emerg. landing
Uffz Kölsche Werner unhurt Munster-Nord ramming B-24 parachuting
FjFw Meya Fritz kia Wendhausen ramming B-17 ast
Lt Nagel Hans kia Berkhof ramming B-17
Fw Otto Walter unhurt Stadthagen ramming B-17 parachuting
Hptm Pesch Roman wia Engehausen ramming B-17 parachuting
Fhr Pröck Eberhard kia Engehausen S Engeholzer Moor ramming B-17 parachuting
Ogfr Rosner Heinrich wia Raum Visselhövede-Soltau ramming B-17 parachuting
Ofhr Schulz-Sembten Dietrich unhurt Engehausen ramming B-17 parachuting
unbekannt ? Wesendorf ramming B-17
unbekannt ? Wesendorf ramming B-17
Uffz Wiedlerroither Gottlieb ? Unbekannt ramming parachuting
Uffz Zell Werner wia Grindau bei Schwarmstedt ramming B-17 lk
Richter Gerhard unhurt Flpl. Halberstadt technical fault
Fw Aue Eberhard kia Bei Gardelegen unknown
Lt Gering Hans kia Winslar, Kreis Leese unknown
Uffz Godry Viktor mia unknown unknown
Grabinger Anton kia Raum Uelzen unknown
Lt Grützke Walter kia Bei Barkow unknown
Fw Hassel kia Brokeloh/Bühren unknown
Jansen Gerhard kia Raum Uelzen unknown
Uffz Kerner Walter kia unknown unknown
Fw Kraul kia Über Reichsgebiet unknown
Lt Krauss Werner kia unknown unknown
Uffz Schmidt Hans-Werner kia Lüneburg unknown
Oblt Schörner Otto kia Raum Eschede unknown
Gefr Schottenhaml Josef kia Über Reichsgebiet unknown
Thode Rolf kia unknown unknown
Uffz Weiss Gerg kia Bei Köthen unknown



Carl

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Fw. Reichenberger, Walter, Spritmangel, Bf 109, "38", bei Breddin, Notlandung (60%)

Best regards
Rasmussen

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Hello,

In post 17 it says "parachuting" in various places. Does that mean the German pilots who bailed successfully? Or some other? Sorry I don't seem to understand those statements. Thanks.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Hi

Here is my loss list for USAAF Bombers
B-17 42-97105 388. BG 561. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 43-38869 388. BG 563. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 42-31366 452. BG 731. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 44-8634 452. BG 731. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 43-38868 452. BG 728. BS Shot down by fighters
B-17 44-8531 452. BG 728. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 44-8225 390. BG 579. BS Shot down by Me 262
B-17 44-8334 100. BG 349. BS Shot down by Bf 109
B-17 42-97071 100.BG 418. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 44-8744 385. BG 550. BS Rammed by Bf 109
B-17 43-39070 493. BG 860. BS Shot down by fighters
B-17 43-38002 490. BG 850. BS Shot down or rammed Bf 109
B-17 44-8528 486. BG 834. BS Destroyed by bombs dropped from other B-17
B-17 43-39163 486. BG 835. BS Shot down by Flak
B-24 44-49254 389. BG Rammed by Bf 109
B-24 44-49533 389. BG 566. BS Collision with B-24 44-49254
B-24 42-94870 445.BG Shot down by Me 262
B-24 44-48830 446. BG 704. BS Crashed in England
B-24 42-94931 467. BG 789. BS Rammed by Bf 109, crew bailed out over Belgium
B-24 42-95194 466. BG 787. BS Crashed during start


...and 8th USAAF fighter units claims for 7th April

4. FG 4 Bf 109
55.FG 6 Bf 109
56. FG 4 Bf 109 , 1 Bf 109 poss, Me 262 dam
78. FG 4 Bf 109, 1 Fw 190
339. FG 7 Bf 109, 4 Fw 190, 1 Bf 109; 1 Me 262 poss; 1 Bf 109, 5 Me 262 dam
352. FG 1 Bf 109
353. FG 7 Bf 109; 1 Bf 109 dam
355. FG 2 Bf 109, 2 Fw 190; 1 Me 262 dam
356. FG 2 Bf 109, 1 Fw 190; 1 Bf 109 poss; 1 Me 262 dam
357. FG 2 Bf 109
479. FG 9 Bf 109, 2 Me 262; 1 Me 262 poss 1 Me 262 dam
Total: 48 Bf 109, 8 Fw 190 2 Me 262; 3 Bf 109 2 Me 262 poss; 2 Bf 109, 9 Me 262 dam

Usually USAAF fighter claims are 50% higher than actual result, so possibly they shot down around 30-35 Elbe planes.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Hi,

From an Allied summary of intercepted Luftwaffe radio traffic on this day:

"An unusual feature on this day was that the running commentary was interspersed with extracts from the "HORST WESSEL LIED", "DEUTSCHLAND LIED" and exhortations to German pilots to "remember the women and children burned under the ruins of our towns" and to "save the Fatherland".


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

An account of a B-17 that is claimed was a victim of the Elbe operation:

http://www.classic-machines.com/blog...be-buchen-raid




Ed

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Another piece of the puzzle:

http://home.earthlink.net/~tom.mccra...verGermany.htm



Ed

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

I search information that the "Sonderkommando Elbe" was in Salzwedel, books, Documents...
Many thanks for your help.

Yours sincerely from Salzwedel

Danielo

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

Speaking of Werner Zell, could you please ask him about Heinrich Rosner? Rosner downed two bombers. I want to know Heinrich Rosner's age when he had done the mission, or his age when he diedin 2001. I wanted to write an almost perfect book for my research on the Sonderkommando ELBE pilot Heinrich Rosner.

Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945
 

According to MACR,B-17 43-38002 was lost on 14.1.1945 ,and it belong to 487BG,so I think there should be someting wrong