Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hi Guys.
I found that this 109 was found on some airfield in either Sicily or Italy.
I don't have access to W. Nr ranges, but may be G-2 to G-6 variant.
Any info on it.
Thx a mil
Stefaan

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

There was a Bf 109G-10 WNr. block that began 770xxx.

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hi Jim.
That will help.
Looks like White 3, but no other markings. Found abandoned in Italy by the SAAF.
Stefaan

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hi there Stefaan,

This is certainly not a Bf 109 G-10; there were none deployed in Sicily in 1943 as this type appears only from September 1944 onwards.

"Weisse 3" is with high probability a Bf 109 G-5 produced by Erla in the W.Nr. 26 000 - 27 100 production range. As there are absolutely no W.Nr. starting with a 7 except the aforementioned 770xxx range produced 1944 - 1945, and as the only production batch using a 7 as a second number is the mentioned Erla batch, the correct W.Nr. should thus be 27 077.

Source: Mermet, J.-C. (2008): Messerschmitt Bf 109 G&K, AéroJournal Hors-Série 1, p. 77.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hello Marc, Hi Stefaan,

Why 27077? I can follow you but with 27022; Concerning the Erla production batch, I have 26000 to 26135, and 27000 to 27185, both G-6. In Van Gogh List... but that last is not necessarely up to date.

Whatever, WNr.27022, if I follow your comments, flew with 4./JGr. Ost then with I./JG 300.... Hummm, not that one I guess.

Cheers, Franck.

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

... Last but not least...

You said that the 27??? range was the only one in production batches to have a 7 as second number...
But surprisingly I have WNr.s 17002 (which could be 17022 TOO!) in JGr. Süd, 17005 in JG 27, 17013, 17014 and 17017 in JG 54 in my small lost list.

That JGr.Süd possible 17022, was lost in L'Isle-sur-la-Sorgue and did wear a Gelbe 16. EXIT that possibility too.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Salut Franck!

OFC, dislexy is a threat at all ages: 27022 it is... And thanks for the others mentioned in the 17xxx range: Mermet 2008 does not list them.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

27022 was white 3, but destroyed:
1944-06-18, 4./JGr. Ost, Bf 109G-6, 27022, 3 weiße, 4 km westlich Fl.Pl. Weidengut, Absturz um 16.40 Uhr infolge Führungsfehler. Bruch 95 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Grundel, Josef. +
27077 is also not possible:
1943-10-20, 4./JG 2, Bf 109G-6, 27077, 1 km südlich Hectomare, 5,7 km nordöstlich Le Neubourg, Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Zerwas, Helmut, +
17022 was possibly never built (my files end with 17019)

Matti

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Correct ... 17022 was never built.

Best Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Thanks Matti and Rasmussen,

it seems that puts an end to that 17002/17022 doubts in JGr. Süd lost list...
Concerning that White 3 Stefaan is talking about I have no positive answer except a JG77 Bf 109 G-2 with White 3 markings ...
But not in Italy. If Stefaan have a picture it should be a step forward. But no positive match with that WNr.

Regards, Franck.

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Thanks Matti and Jörg!

Stefaan, your turn;-))

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hi Guys.
Sorry, first time I am at my computer again.
It may not be White 3, looks like field applied '3'.
Is definately 77022. Will try to upload photo, otherwise email to Franck and he can upload.
Thx for the help
Stefaan

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Stefaan,

You make my day: this is a Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 77022x, produced by WNF factory Vienna, between late 1944 and March 1945. The last digit of the W.Nr. is amiss, probably painted over on the tail. Jim, you were smack on the money!

Your picture is thus taken at war's end in Germany or Italy, not in Sicily. To my eyes, no markings whatsoever on this machine are to be seen...

Thanks for sharing this gem with us!

Cheers
Marc

PS: after a closer look, I see a small "Weisse 7"... No idea about the unit beyond the basic possibility, given the constant use of small numerals that this machine belonged to a NAGr unit like this other G-10/R2 W.Nr. 770 338 at Campoformido, Italy. Maybe Nick can tell us more about other G-10/R2 found in Italy?

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hello Stefaan,

... Definitely!
Already sent a mail hours ago to Marc saying I was sure you got the picture! I wasn't wrong.

For now I'm not able to say more... Marc will be able and Jörg too ... Perhaps JCM.

I'm not that good at that point!!!!

Cheers my Friend, Franck.

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hello everyone,

In my admittedly limited files, I show the following Bf109G-10/R2s with Werknummern of 77022X:

G-10/R2, 770223, NN, NAG3, 45/04/02, NN
G-10/R2, 770224, 10+, 2./NAG12, NN, NN
G-10/R2, 770228, 12+ W, 1./NAG2, 45/03/24, Wilmersdorf at Bohumin, Cz.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Neat photo - there does appear to be either a very small '7' or, due to the shredding of the fuselage, possibly a '3' as a Kennzeichen on the machine in the usual location for that sort of thing. Nice piece of detective work gentlemen! I do have these 3 machines in my database so Marc's supposition that this machine belonged to a NAGr is most likely correct.

Bf 109G-10, 770223, ./., , , Eins., NAGr. 3, , , , , 02-Apr-45, Delivered from Wiener-Neustadt., , Lfl. 6, KTB Lfl. 6/mfm T-321/R.51, , Fl.Pl. Dresden-Klotzsche, -, F, , ,
Bf 109G-10, 770224, ./., , , 2., NAGr. 12, weiße, 10 +, , , , On strength with this unit in late 1944-1945., , Balkans/Hunagry, Jet & Prop, 'Sie Flogen bis zum letzten Tag', p.51, , , 100%, F, , ,
Bf 109G-10/R2, 770228, KOHLHAGEN, Oblt. Kurt, , I., 1., NAGr. 2, weiße, 12 +, , , 25-Mar-45, KIA in Notlandung due to Flak., , Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12); Gen.Qu.6.Abt.-BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/1199, p.94; Rahlich, et al, LW Over Czech Territory 1945, p.183, , ostwärts Wilmersdorf, 100%, F, , ,

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Steve, Jim,

Great info there. Thanks!

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hi Guys.
Thx for all the info.
The chap was with 3 sqdn SAAF, and they went up the eastern side of Italy.
After the war they went towards Bechtesgarden on a jolly, so it could be
any of the fields around that area. He does not remember where it was taken. Was just passing through taken a snapshot like we all do.
Be good
Stefaan

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hi there Stefaan,

thanks for the additional details; Given that no other Bf 109 G-10/R2 were found at war's end in Italy then W.Nr. 770 338, NAGr. 11 at Campoformido, this machine was probably photographed in the Berchtesgaden area. The vegetation and surroundings speak for a flat area next to a river, maybe also in Tyrol.

Source: Beale, N., D'Amico, F. and Valentini, G (1996): Air War Italy 1944 - 45, Airlife, p. 213 - 216.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Hi all,

can an intended delivery to ANR units be excluded?
D'Amico and Valentini picture in their book "Camo and markings of the ANR" on p.109 freshly delivered 109s, still with their StKz, with small crudely hand-painted digits "1" and "3". The "3" depicting the squadriglia where to be delivered to. Maybe a delivery to 3a Squadriglia 1° Gruppo Caccia which did not find its way?

Regards

Roland

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Ah Ah ... still hot I see.
Note the cockpit seems to have been blown from inside by a grenade;
is there a thread in TOCH with two pictures and some old stupid comments of mine ?? :D. I think yes.

Franck.

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Other have already answered, but FWIW I can add that recce aircraft were clearly of no use to the ANR fighter units.

So much that, when the 1° Gruppo was re-equipped in February 1945 with new Bf 109s, a couple of G-10/R2s were (erroneously) among the deliveries coming from German Luftparks.

Those, namely W.Nr. 770 184 and 770 209, were immediately flown to NaGr.11 in Campoformido on 27 February.

That's all.

Re: Bf 109 W. Nr. 77022
 

Grazie mille, Veltro!

Interesting story, those two other "useless" for the ANR G-10/R2s...

Cheers
Marc