A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Hi gents,

Never seen that one:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Me262A-JV44-1...item20c10a3950
1: Is it new?
2: Is it Hötting?

Regards, Franck.

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Salut Franck!

According Dan O'Connell's analysis posted on LEMB, this plane could be a Stab./JG 7 machine. The pic is taken at Innsbruck, positively identified as such.
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...pic=5311&st=40

Cheers
Marc

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Definitely Innsbruck-Hötting. Blasienberg (Mt. St.Blaise) is in the background; view is from northeast looking southwest.
Concerning the jet ist max be also one of the ex-I./JG51 (red tailtip with white trim?) machines.

Regards

Roland

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Bonjour Marc & Roland,

Thank you both of you:
Marc; for the link!!!! :p
Roland to confirm the place - for which I had/have no many doubts, except I have/had NOT this one in my datas.
Roland, I agree for an ex-I./JG 51 machine but when you say "one of the ex-I./JG 51 machines" does it mean there was others? And do you mean ex-I./KG 51 instead of JG?
Last, in order to help people I join an aerial view of contemporary (1945) Hötting airfield.
1/ Someone able to point where was this present machine?
2/ It will be good to get a larger view of that picture - is it possible?

Thanks for comments and help.

Regards, Franck.

PS: don't forget my question: "is it a new picture?"
.... and here is the aerial view I was talking about...

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Terrible typo:o - of course KG 51.
Remember "Black L", 9K+FH on southern bavarian airstrips.
This one seems to be parked close to the poplar alley in the north of Hötting airfield.

Regards

Roland

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

You're forgiven Roland!
Infortunately that place is in the back ground of the picture I put!
Is you're natural language english or german???
Cheers, Franck.

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Hi Franck,

It's not a new one, it has been for sale at Tonelli's some time ago! Proof attached..

Regards,
Christian

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Hello Christian,

Thank you very much. I like your answer: +1!!
I want to make a link with some pictures I have. I'm unable to do it since the red fin tip isn't obvious on those...
I think one can match - "poplar alley" as told by Rolland - but ???

Thanks again, cheers. Franck.

PS: Yes, my second point of interest are me 262s.... Not only Bf 109.

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Hi Franck,

the poplar alley marks the northern border of Hötting a/f and the road from Innsbruck to Zirl and via Garmisch further into southern Bavaria. That´s why many JV 44 jets parked along that road were photographed by GIs whereas the other planes parked along the river Inn at the southern border of the Hötting airfield (your photo) weren´t photographed that much.
Btw, my native language is German...

Regards

Roland

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

OK Roland,
Thanks for your quick answer!!! I start to get the figure... We talk later!
Tschüss, Franck.

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Gents,

That aircraft, White 1, WNr.1133xx, is certainly a JV 44 aircraft. It was abandoned about 30 metres to the left of White 12 and orientated similarly (forward to the north). It has appeared in the background of several photos in the past - you just have to know where to look.

Cheers,

David

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Thank you David,

So, White 12 nose is pointed towards the Zirl road - eg poplar alley - and the mountain in the background - eg south-western part - are Blasienberg (Mt. St.Blaise) said Roland.

Sorry to insist David but I try to point - since long - all the planes on one Hötting map, using the relative position of one plane to another one and using the (small) aerial picture I have on which it's quite impossible to see the said planes and the wooden barracks (Zirl road/northern part).
In the mean time, the Me 262s in the foreground of my picture are easy to count; that means - for me - there were more Me 262s in Hötting than all the figure I've read on forums (TOCH & LEMB since it's my only reference, having no "bible") until today.

Regards, Franck.

I forgot: "White 1" ?

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Hello Franck,

"white 12" is photographed from west looking to the east. To the right is "Berg Isel"(Mt.Isel).
Wooden barracks and hangars (Hötting was a glider airfield) are visible in your photo. The famous Ju 87D-7 of NSGr 9 was parked there with several jets (e.g.111857) surrounding it.
Concerning "White 1". I think Dan is mistaking above "1" - colour unknown - with "White 1" (number on fuselage nose) mistakenly having landed at Innsbruck-Reichenau a/f, the then civil airport of Insbruck.

Regards

Roland

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

"Yellow G" was a D-3. I have never found a single D-7 or D-8 among strength returns for NSG 9 (nor any other NSG). I have never seen one in loss records or in Allied reports on captured or wrecked aircraft either.

P.S. for Franck: if you want to determine where each aircraft was at Hötting, then you just have sit down with a large-scale map and compare it to the photographs — hard work, I know, but it seems like the only way to do it. The modern airport was built over the site but some features have remained essentially the same: the River Inn (southern perimeter), the road (northern perimeter), the mountains and the churches on them. The overhead power lines that ran across the southern part of the field are still on the map as well. Those should give you sufficient reference points to work from.

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Thanks Roland and Nick for your helpfull comments.

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Dear all,

this is "Red 1" of KG51, flown by Lt Haeffner (2.KG51) on 10th April 45 from Leipheim after having handed over his old ship "9K+OK" to JG7 at Oranienburg some days before. Information comes from his flight log.

Lt Haeffner then took over "Red 2", which he flew until handing it over to JV44 at Munich Riem.

"Red 1" may also have reached Munich-Riem before flown out to Innsbruck to escape American capture.

Tailtip and number is in red, both with white trim as already stated by Roland.

I also know the photo of "Red 1" seen behind "white 12"

Karl

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Dear Karl,

Thank you for this comment. I'll be glad to know, too, the photo of "Red 1" seen behind "White 12".
Is it possible for you to put a scan down here?? Thank you very much.

Tschüss, Franck.

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Hi Franck and Karl,

Franck, here is the photo Karl and I mentioned (below). Note the proximity of “Red 1” to “White 12”. In your posted photos the former is just to the right out of the picture.

Karl, thanks for sharing your thoughts. They gave me pause to think more about this aircraft and do a bit of research.

I see from Haeffner’s flightbook that he was a very busy fellow. He had three Feindflug in “9K+R1" and one in "9K+R2" all on April 10th out of Leipheim. There were three with "9K+R2" on the 11th, 15th and 16th with an überführung from Leipheim to Memmingen on the 21st, then the next day to München-Reim. On the 29th he picked up his old kite "9K+OH" at M-R (but I cannot discern from his handwriting the destination). No doubt that he was picking up the kite after it was handed over to JV 44 from them about a week before, and then returned to KG 51.

What strikes me is that the aircraft was given a fighter-style code which is extraordinary given that KG 51 was a bomber unit. Interestingly, we know that I. and III./KG(J) 54 did switch to a numeric code in early April 1945. And all photographic and documentary evidence known to date indicates that KG 51 retained the alphabetic code.

I wonder if Haeffner's "Red 1" and "Red 2" were not KG 51 aircraft but from another unit? I suggest this for several reasons. Radtke (1990) indicates that during April, I. and II. Gruppen had losses of aircraft coded "B3+we.8", "B3+ge.9", "B3+ro.1", etc. Furthermore, two I. Gruppe aircraft are noted as Überführung to Innsbruck on May 8, one of which had a Bruchlandung. Unfortunately, no codes are listed, though if this is correct "ro.1" may well be one of these two aircraft.

I might comment further on the Geschwader code that pilots noted in their flight books. During the last months/weeks of the war, and in particularly with regards to KG 51 and KG(J) 54, photographs confirm that the aircraft were wearing a single letter or number respectively. The "9K" and "B3" codes were simply absent and/or painted over. Indeed, Haeffner's "Black O" is a perfect example – only the “O” is visible in extant photos of it. The use of the unit codes in flightbooks was, I believe, the pilot's way of trying to keep track of aircraft affiliations.

Where am I going with this? I believe that Haeffner misidentified "Red 1" as a KG 51 aircraft when it was not. He had a habit of this and most tellingly made a mistake in his flight book on May 8th in identifying the aircraft he flew from Prag to München. Two aircraft arrived there together that afternoon by two 2./KG 51 pilots: "Black L", WNr.110836 of 2./KG 51 flown by Hptm. Rudolph Abrahamczik and "Yellow 5", WNr.501232 of 9./KG(J) 6 flown by Lt. Heinrich Haeffner. In his flightbook for his last flight (#630), he mistakenly identifies the aircraft as “7” and drew a little checkerboard ahead of the number. As the aircraft only wore a “Yellow 5”, he did not know its full code (or could not for that matter).

Taken together, I do not think that “Red 1” was a JV 44 or KG 51 aircraft, the former wearing simple white numbers and the latter white of black letters outlined in black and white respectively. Me 262s from KG(J) 6 all had un-outlined numbers. The only Me 262 unit that I am aware of that at this late stage of the war that had outlined numbers was KG(J) 54. Given that this aircraft it lacks a Gruppe bar (common to III. Gruppe aircraft), I believe that “Red 1” was from 2./I./KG(J) 54 and was one of the two that made it to Innsbruck on May 8, 1945 as noted by Radtke. That means that there very well may be another there that has yet to be photographed.

Cheers,

David

Attachment 6795

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Good morning David,

Thank you for the expected picture; it's like a christmas gift. Futhermore, it's a clear picture!
You gave a lot of details, too, in your comments which is precious for me; thanks again.

Best regards, Franck.

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Just one thought on the codes … there were KG 51 Fw 190s that carried "9K+[number]", although only in a training role as far as I know.

I think David has a convincing argument re KG(J) 54 and I'd see red 1's camouflage as corroboration, since they exhibited a lot of unusual paint schemes.

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Dear David, Nick et al,

I agree with you that "Red 1" and "Red 2" do not fit in the marking scheme of KG51.
Jan Horn in his book "Das Flurschaden-Geschwader" (available only in German) offers us an answer. This may be planes of the "Versuchsschwarm General der Schlachtflieger (G.d.S.)", an experimental unit integrated in I.KG51.
Known members of this group were Major Brücker, Lt Strate and Fj-Fw Fröhlich. These people left I.KG51 at Memmingen on 23th April by car and joined JV44 at Munich-Riem. They can be found on the JV44-pilots list of 27th April 45 with the remark "G.d.S".
Interestingly, Fj-Fw Fröhlich left JV44 and joined 2.KG51 again to fly from Munich-Riem to Prague-Ruszyne on 29th April. On 8th May he flew from Zatec/CZ to Fassberg with well known "Black X", now on display in Australia.
One proof that the G.d.S.–planes were marked with red numbers is the following. An ULTRA decrypt reports, that on 11th April 45 Lt Strate made an emergency landing with WNr. 170 053, "Red 2" at Hollenbach near Neuburg/Donau.

@Franck: David was a bit faster in showing the photo you wanted to see.

Karl

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

sorry, I should have checked my reference material before writing:

The JV44-pilot list relates Brücker, Strate and Fröhlich as members of KG51. The reference to G.d.S comes from the ULTRA decrypt about Lt Strate´s emergency landing. In Jan Horn´s book the G.d.S. is explained in detail.

Karl

Re: A New Me262 picture taken in Hötting?
 

Do you have the reference for that ULTRA?