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Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
He Ho!!! Alter Hase since this morning; RESPECT OK? :rolleyes:
I'm kidding.... #5 WNr.2023! Famous one since it has been brought back to life. Shot down 27/5/1942, Sommer flying it while in 8./JG 5. http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=2207 and others on same Falcon site. But now we got it in E-3 version, with early 1940 camouflage. Who flew it? Which unit? Many thanks for your answers and comments. Best regards, Franck. |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
OK....
Let me try; if #5 is taken in early 1940, let's say May June, as indicated by camouflage the only one I see is Balthasar in 1./JG 1. Mölders is another possibility but camo doesn't match pretty well. Not enough victories for Galland... Mere speculations of course. Next to try? ... except if you have the right answer. Tschüss, Franck. |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Gentlemen,
the victory tally on the tail of the Emil in photo no. 5 belongs to Oblt. Wolfgang Lippert, then StKap. of 5./JG 27. This and the other photos showing Emils of II./JG 27 in this collection were originally part of a small album of a former member of II./JG 27 which was apparently ripped apart to sell the photos individually - just one more time this happened and an entity of photos will dissolve in all directions. Regards Jochen Prien |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
:D UUUUPPPSSS, :o.
Thank you Mr. Prien! I don't want to fight with you BUT: I don't see nowhere (JFV Teil 3 and Teil 4.1) Oblt. Lippert as Staffel Kaptain of 5./JG 27 and P.403 Hptm. Lippert is credited of his 16th victory on 1/11/1940 in Stab II./JG 27. Here we can count 17th. Hence my confusion... with something which is looking -for me - much more with "Balthasar" style. I'm sure, whatever, you're most probably right. Thanks a lot for your comments. Regards, Franck. |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Dear Franck,
I'm awfully sorry for the confusion I caused by ( too ) quickly answering from my office desk and based solely on my - faulty - memory. You are right of course in observing that Wolfgang Lippert was Hauptmann by the time this photo was taken and that he was C.O. of II./JG 27 and not Staffelkapitän of 5./JG 27. So here we go again: the victory tally belongs to the a/c of Hptm. Wolfgang Lippert, then Gruppenkommandeur of II./JG 27. The exact date and location of the photo are not known and leave some pace for further research. Regards Joche Prien |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Quote:
I'd better do the link between that one and the other pictures sold by this seller; even like that I won't be able to make the link! Thanks again Mr. Prien. Tschüss, Franck. Any thoughts about #7 where we can see a 1./JG 54 E-3 with a Weisse 6 ... Humm, it is said! ... and a magnificent white cowling; since the Code number is white.? |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
This link:
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lippert.html If you take the 5 Legion Condor victories out of the list, we have the 16th on 1/11/1940 over Canterbury and the 17th on 22/6/1941 over S Knyszyn. during his short Balkan period.... Since the plane camouflage appears to be early 1940 style we can suppose the plane is that one http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4625 or that one http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=1562 ... |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Lippert also claimed his 18th on 22-Jun-41 at 04.18, an I-17 nordöstlich Wizna. This was 3 minutes after #17 at 04.15. This wouldn't be from the Balkans, but from the first sorties of 'Barbarossa'. So again taking the 5 Legion Condor claims out of the list, it seems odd that the machine would only display 17 claims, but #18 could have been left off for any number of reasons. If the 5 LC claims are included then the photo was likely taken between 7-Sep and 17-Sep-40. Of note is that Lippert's 109E WNr. 4148 from the Balkan campaign has a row of 21 claims - probably his 16 in WWII up to that time and the 5 LC claims?
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Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Franck
Could be his 17th victory after 17th Sept 1940. A number of Aces had their Spanish claims included on their tallies. Difficult to tell whether this photo is late summer 1940 or early summer 1941. Even the camouflage (though early 1940) sometimes carried through till later. Not sure what plans Jerry Yagen has for when 2023 is finally finished. He knew how she looked when lost with JG5 but now he has a more interesting scheme to work on!! Great to see. MS Jim has said the same. I think the Spanish claims are included and this was a photo from Sept 1940. |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Hi gents,
OK Jim, He flew 4148 during his brief Balkan campaign, displaying 21 victories, the last one he got over Canturbery. Hence his Tally is shown on fin including LC five ones. If so the 17 victories figure we can see on the said picture shows us his plane just after 7/9/1940, that is a couple of days after his arrival in Stab II./JG 27. That is: most probably http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4625 is the said plane still wearing the early 1940 Camouflage. And http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=1562 is most probably the same plane but wearing the late camo. Note the old model of safety jacket, and, of course, that picture isn't taken in Larissa but in France; Mechanical fatigues don't match with Grece period and weather anyway. Cheers, Franck. |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
I think you may be correct Franck. The 2 photos seem to be from 2 different times - it's too bad the 2nd photo isn't as crisp as the first. It may be the same camo scheme, but due to the different lighting....the thing that suggests different times/days are things like the upturned collar on the kapok lifevest and 2 groundcrew without caps in the 2nd photo vs. the one in the first. It's weird the things we look for, isn't it?
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Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Hi there Franck,
Thanks for this rich haul! 4. Is "Schwarze 6" one of the Erla built all-RLM 76 Bf 109 G-6 like the ones depicted at the factory in Autumn 1943? http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream Cheers Marc |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Bonsoir Marc,
It's a Bf 109 E Marc, look at the air scoop. No, it's during the first stay of II./JG 27 in Bönninghardt in April or Mai 1940. 5./JG 27 stood alone between 9/5/40 and 15/5/40. Camouflage is the early 40 one. I suppose many of the II./JG 27 pictures in this batch have been taken in Bönninghardt. Salut, Franck. |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Elevator position are different as well as shadows. Could mean 10 minute difference but not necessarily a different day. No other reference points - prop, wheels, markings, trees, background.
As Jim said - you look for every difference! Mark |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Hi Mark,
Sorry, what are you talking about? When I try the link given by Marc I just get a production line in factory. Anyway, place is writing on back of picture... Bönninghardt. Two pictures in this batch got this writing. Both II./JG 27. What else? Regards, Franck. |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Sorry Franck
Referring to photo 5 and 2023 and your links to the two photos of Lipperts Bf109E after by the side of the field. Trying to establish if they were taken at roughly the same time. regards Mark |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Ah Ok Mark,
Roughly the same time? ... Huum in a couple of month I guess. Is it the same plane? I said "most" but probably was enough. One clearly wears the early 40s camo the other the down-toned sides and yellow cowling. Concerning the bush background: for me it's the same vegetation, size and "jizz"... Hence same place. Period: mechanical suits, Kapok "mae west" ... less than a month of difference. Most probably it's 2023 with its 17 victories when Lippert reach II./JG 27; and probably the plane has been repainted for BoB operations ... But, I agree that many retained their early 40 camo (see JG 3 for example) until well in 1941. Concerning II./JG 27, I'm not sure it's the case. Need to check this aspect. Cheers, Franck. |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
SORRY Guys !!!!!
I wrote Bönninghardt but we need to read Bonningues (Bonningues-lès-Calais) which is situated exactly right on the middle between St. Inglevert and Peuplingues. (And not so far from Pihen-lès-Guînes) That is between September and November 1940 for II./JG 27. Check and Check again like they say!.... Franck. PS: Is it the same airfield in fact? One unit on Peuplingues side, the other by St. Inglevert while a third one by Pihen, but all using the same strip? Or three distinct airfields? |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Franck
Photos are from different periods. The first Bf109E photo is with 65/71/02 colours with the blue sides and is probably from July 1940? http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4625 The second Bf109E photo has a yellow cowling and the photo 5 on ebay seems to show a yellow rudder so this is likely to be September 1940? The fuselage seems to be a bit more mottled or dirty or just a poorer quality photo. http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=1562 The ebay photo is therefore more connected with the second photos and if taken when Lippfert arrived at II/JG27 and his 17th victory (7-9-40) - would seem correct. (Is the left hand side black mark 'victory' to the below the Hakenkreuz newly painted?) It would be the latest mark? http://www.ebay.de/itm/Orig-Foto-Flu...ht_2488wt_1574 regards Mark |
Re: Bf 109s on eBay. 13/01
Sorry Mark,
I'm just talking about the two pictures where it's written something (Bonningues NOT Bönningardt as I wrote first) on back. Since Bonningues isn't indicated on Prien books neither on M. Holm site I just did look on map to discover the place. Now for the period just look at St. Inglevert. Once again camo as nothing to do with the period in many cases. I don't know where was taken Lippert picture. Tschüss, Franck. PS: I use numbers before the link, use it please. |
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