BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Hi Guys.
To all the chaps that helped a while back.
I have evidence that that Bf 109 77022 may have been on an airfield shared by 250 RAF Sqdn.
Since this was end of the War it must be one of the following Airfields:
From Nov 44 till Sep 46.
1.Fano
2.Cervia
3.Lavariano
4.Tissano
For you guys in the know, it may help to work out the Unit of the 109.
Nick Beal, any info from your side??
Stefaan

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

If it was a G-10 then the sixth digit of the Werk Nummer is missing.

As far as I know, the 770 series were G-10/R2 reconnaissance models and so if yours was in Italy it should have served with NAG 11. The unit was based at Udine-Campoformido from late 1944 through to the end of the war. There were several Bf 109 G's found on Italian airfields for which no details were recorded (often because they were too badly damaged to find any i/d), including five at Campoformido.

(770223 was delivered to NAG 3 in Luftflotte 6 in April 1945, so you can eliminate one aircraft from your enquiries, at least).

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Hello Stephan and Nick,

Tending in count the new info given by Stefaan:
I don't pretend to give an answer but just to remind what Ferdinando did say in his post #22:

"Other have already answered, but FWIW I can add that recce aircraft were clearly of no use to the ANR fighter units.

So much that, when the 1° Gruppo was re-equipped in February 1945 with new Bf 109s, a couple of G-10/R2s were (erroneously) among the deliveries coming from German Luftparks.

Those, namely W.Nr. 770 184 and 770 209, were immediately flown to NaGr.11 in Campoformido on 27 February"

Good to notice is that Tissano and Campoformido are BOTH in Udine area just separeted by 12,8 kms following Google maps!

Good to notice, too, that 770184 & 770209 were received by 1°Gruppo, yes!.. But not only: 770184 was received by 2°Squadriglia and it appears it was coded 2-5. 770209 was received by 3°Squadriglia; no code given.

Now, read again, and think about what Roland did write in his post #20....

Whatever, Tissano/Campoformido sounds good for me, and 77022x is most probably one of the "5" left at Campoformido; That is NAGr. 11.

Last if you eliminate 770223; what's left? And Nick didn't say that ALL Five were G-10/R2; just Gs

Regards, Franck.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Hi Franck, Nick.
The photo was given by Golding, 3 sqdn SAAF.
I see he was based at Udine May -Aug 45.
That corresponds to Waldek, so it must be Udine area.
Nick, did you see previous post with the photo??
I would go with Franck, as Udine thus Tissano most likely.
Now we must look at some 250 RAF sites/books to see if there are other photos of this a/c somewhere and we will know.
They may have photographed it as well.
Hope that helps.
Stefaan

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

That's exactly what I'm thinking about! :D
Good luck; quite impossible no one haven't shot this one!

Franck.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Hi there Stefaan, Nick and Franck,

According to the list of aircraft found at Campoformido compiled by Nick, Ferdinando and Gabriele Valentini, there were 11 Bf 109's, an Ar. 34, two Ju 188's and a Ju 88 found by No. 1 Forward Intelligence Unit (F.I.U.) Party B on 25 May 1945:

Of those 11 Bf 109 G's, 5 are positively identified as G-8's (W.Nr. 201129, 201134, 230132, 230144, 230292) and one more as our already noted Bf 109 G-10/R2 W.Nr. 770338. All those machines belonged to NAGr. 11.

The five remaining were found as follows:

- Bf 109 G, completely burnt out
- Bf 109 G, demolished, 1x MG 151 only
- Bf 109 G, completely burnt out
- Bf 109 G, completely burnt out, 1x MG 151 only
- Bf 109 G, completely burnt out, 1 x MG 151 only.

Except if the above mentioned planes were destroyed by Allies after the takeover of Campoformido, giving thus a chance for Goulding to take a picture of a plane gutted at a later but before 25 May 1945 date, there is no chance for W.Nr. 77022x to have been seen on Italian soil in May 1945.

As for Tissano, there are no plane reported to be found there at the end of WWII. Maybe Nick can tell us more?

Source: Beale, (N.), D'Amico, (F.) and Valentini, (G.), (1996): Air War Italy 1944-45. The Axis Air Forces from the Liberation of Rome to the Surrender, Airlife, p. 214.

Cheers
Marc

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Just a couple of precisations:

I own an original copy of the listing from where the info supplied by Ouidjat were apparently derivated (supplied directly from Argentina many years ago by the Deputy CO of 1° Gruppo, Cap. Robetto, who had preserved the original...). It is worth to precise that the 770184 didn't receive the indicated codes, but was simply planned to. Quite a difference. This was furtherly stated by Robetto at a precise question. Such written listing reported also the codes of the three K-4s of the unit, but to date this is only an indication of their planned identity, not any confirmation at all of that... and those stayed with the unit until the end...!

Turning back to the hypothesis that the "77022x" of the photo was one of the aircraft found at Campoformido, there is a simple fact against that: should a G-10/R2 in such conditions had been found by the Intelligence unit examining the field, its presence and the codes would have been in that report. The fact that it isn't so leads only to one conclusion....it wasn't there.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

thanks for the precisions Ferdinando;

In your opinion, any chance that one of those planes might have been gutted in a kind of V-E Day bonfire after allied takeover and before 25 May? this is the only hypothesis which could conciliate the fact - the picture - with the surmised location -Friul. If not, then definitely in the Austrian or German Alps then!

Cheers
Marc

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Everything is possible, but trying to use hindsight 65 years later we enter in the field of theories and hypothesis, impossible to validate with the facts actually available.

Maybe a listing of the planes used by NAGr.11 would help... if such a thing would magically appear... ;)

Just to add one more hypothesis, even the civilians could have scrapped aircraft before the Allied took hold of the airfield, considering how much valuable metal scrap was then, but I wouldn't bet on it and it is very improbable that after Allied troops arrived they destroyed anything if not following orders... and Udine was occupied by the British 6th Armoured Division on 2 May, only one day later the Germans abandoned it, and I cannot imagine any British soldier looting enemy material if not ordered to.

But that's only my opinion, of course.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

I don't know, but from an extract - a photocopy - from one of your book for sure. In the same listing we can find a G-16 too ... must be a typo.
That the code was or not used isn't explained.

Last, Tissano isn't exactly Campoformio and there is an airfield in Tissano. In fact two, without talking about Rivolto, Palmanova and San Mauro in Udine area. All in less than 30km one from each other (Except Rivolto to San Mauro.. must be 50kms); roughly, I didn't take the time to get the true distances.

Salve, Franck.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Agreed, hindsight is not acceptable. Grazie mille, Ferdinando!

Cheers
Marc

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

That was in 1984 and three more books have been published since, correcting and improving info.

Moreover, even then the "2-5" was indicated as "cancelled", which, even for inexperienced authors as we were at that time, was some sort of indication, or at least we thought so...

Nor that I blame me or you for that, only that there are many info in the ANR section of that old Monogram book that were incorrect and I for first would not suggest at all to use it as an historical reference for the topic... we tried to improve research and accuracy in the following 25 or so years, so forgive me if I try to correct info that is not correct, even coming from me.

It is part of the ethic of research, I guess.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Hello,

Why I have W.Nr.770338 found in Bolzano and not in Campoformio???
Cheers, Franck.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

I don't know, why do you have 770338 in Bolzano?

You didn't get it from "Party B, No. 1 Field Intelligence Report No. 24" (about Bolzano). The same unit's Report No. 31 clearly lists that machine at Campoformido.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

I would like to "resurrect" the thread about this aircraft, because of new evidence.

The first new mention was in this thread over LEMB (http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...991#entry90856) which pointed attention to a series of exceptional photographic archives of former SAAF pilots containing also images of captured or abandoned enemy aircraft.

The next step was to go to the source (http://hannesfaure.yolasite.com/photographs.php) and looking at everything.

In doing so, I have found that the albums of Lt. Cecil Golding does contain some incredible material (especially concerning ANR aircraft), but in particular the same image of W.Nr. 770 22x which was posted here.

This fact brought two new elements: source and context.

It seems clear that we have found the primary source for that photo, which was a SAAF pilot (Cecil Golding) who ended the war as CO of SAAF No.3 Squadron in Italy. Among his photographs there were some shot in captured Northern Italy airfields (especially Villafranca)... and the one of 770 22x.

Not only: there is a second photograph of another late Bf 109 (no. 259 here - http://saafww2photographs.yolasite.c...-general-3.php which was apparently taken in the same location and seems (to me, at least) another recce aircraft.

Thus, considering the source and context new info, I would like to change my opinion and, notwithstanding the fact that the Allied Air Intelligence Unit files does not report the "770 22x" as found in Italy (or elsewhere, for that count), I am now more than seriously convinced that it was photographed along with its companion in the dispersal area of a very Italian airfield (Campoformido or even Villafranca itself)...

Thanks for your attention.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Buondi Ferdinando,

Thanks for your much appreciated valuation of those new pictures! The fact that they might after all be shot in Italy do make things easier regarding to the surrounding, quite southern, vegetation. After having checked both pictures, I arrive to the conclusion that both do represent the same Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 22x "Kleine Weisse 7" of a yet to identify NAGr.
- Notice the blown engine lying at the same canted angle
- Notice the rudder and tailplane canted at the same angle

That there was a time span between the two shots is exemplified by the much greater damage seen on the fuselage, between the cockpit and the Balkenkreuz. This difference is not sufficient IMHO for establishing with certainty the presence of two different G-10's. I keep thus a cautious approach with one plane shown by two different pictures.

Cheers and thanks again
Marc

PS: the Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr 160 319 "14 Giallo" is another extraordinary shot...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Agreed. After a second examination the plane should be the same in the two photographs.

What left me off was the different damage on fuselage and engine in the two images. This wasn't going to collime with the same person making two different pictures at the same subject in two separate occasions, considering also that the pilot wasn't based there... But this is a further proof that logic isn't always the only path to follow...

Concerning the "14 giallo" of 2º Gruppo Caccia, the most surprising thing is that I had already found a few years ago a different picture of it taken by an US soldier...

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

To be precise in Tissano there was no runway. Which is mistakenly referred to with this name is that one, in concrete, of Risano, (that is another nearby village) and is located approximately 2.5 km north of the well known airfield of Lavariano.
Risano is a new airfield whose construction started in November 1943 and that was abandoned in July-August 1944. At that time, only the east-west part (still in use) was finished, while of the other runaway, oriented north-south, existed only the underpinning made ​​of gravel, today not detectable. The still existing strip is now used by factory of ultralight aircraft and can be easily identified in Google Earth at coordinates 45 ° 58'7 .00 "N 13 ° 14'8 .00" E

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Ferdinando,

All ok then, but for the question as to where those shots were taken. Having "14 Giallo" also in this serie might indicate indeed Villafranca...

Freddy, I'm not sure what Tissano and Risano airfield do mean here. As a possible location for Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 22x?

Cheers
Marc

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Ciao Marc,
I wanted only to made clear that Tissano, who had been mentioned at the beginning of this thread by Stefaan and then resumed several times by others, did not exist.
In fact very often there is confusion between Risano and Lavariano who were two distinct airfields.
The confusion between Tissano-Risano but also Chiasiellis, all places very close to each other, comes from the fact that Tissano and Chiasiellis, as well as Lavariano were all airfields in use during World War I, while the first two were abandoned and turned into fields after that War, only Lavariano, which was the largest and most important, had continued to be used until at least 1946/1947.

With respect to the 77 022? I checked in my database of Luftwaffe aircraft lost or abandoned on the airfields of Friuli at the end of the war, but I have no Bf 109 with a similar W.Nr.. It must be said, however, that of many of the aircraft I recorded I couldn't find out the W.Nr.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Ciao Freddy,

Thanks for putting me back on track... So no good reason to expect W.Nr 770 22x more there then elsewhere. The hunt for it's location is still on.

Cheers
Marc

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

AH! very interesting,
It wouldn't have been a G-10 I should have say take care...
The following pictures of a FW190 were most probably taken at Gerbini in July to september 1943 when 1°Sqdn SAAF took it together with a G-4 of 2.(H)/14.

...

Franck.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

It was me that found that report, in 1987 at the Public Record Office. We used it and other FIU reports for the appendices of "Air War Italy 1944-45" (Beale, D'Amico, Valentini, Airlife, 1996).

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

ya the Ar 234 140344 - Oblt. Sommer of Kdo. Sommer, reported damage of the undercarriage when landing at Udine airfield April 16th 1945.

khorat

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Thanks Nick,
I have your book but, as usual, I forgot to search in it.
I'm sorry and apologize for the incorrect citation.

Freddy

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

What's the source for that? I corresponded with Erich Sommer for years and (quoting "Air War Italy 1944-45" again): "Sommer wrote off T9+EH in a belly landing at Campoformido but forgets the exact date."

There is however this message sent on 13 April from Italy to OKL:

CX/MSS/T519/53
KO 438
From BOWJI ((G.A.F. IT.)) ((QM)) to FOBEZ ((OKL)). a/c distribution Kurfuerst 1 on 13/4:-
The immediate allocation of 2 Ar ZASYR ((234)) B-2 is requested for maintaining and carrying out urgent operational tasks.
NOTE: Detachment Sommer (Ar 234) subordinated to GAFIT from 5/4 (T510/98).

We know that Kommando Sommer began with three aircraft and that one (Gniesmer's machine) was shot down on 11 April. If the Luftwaffe in Italy asked on 13 April for two more Arados to maintain operational capability, it seems to suggest that a second aircraft had been lost either that day or perhaps on the 12th.

By the way, if anyone's interested in why Sommer's aircraft was found without engines, here's where they were:

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

"Our" book, Freddy, our book... :D

BTW, it was me that supplied to my friend Roberto Bassi the report and other things... ;)

P.S. Never thought the G-10/R2 W.Nr. 770 22x was at Risano... strange how it may seem, I still think of Villafranca... very difficult that Golding made an "holyday tour" in Northern Italy having twice the opportunity to photograph the same plane in different conditions...

If we consider the possibility that one F.I.U. report was wrong, why not the one of Villafranca?

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Hi Nick, got this information from E.C.

khorat
Michael Balss

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Hallo Michael, who (or what?) is E.C.? My brain can only come up with Eric Clapton at the moment!

P.S. The FIU report on Campoformido says that there were miles of dispersal tracks (many unused) that extended as far as Lavariano so that Bf 109 could have been overloooked near Risano.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

I noted Eddie J. Creek behind the information about this serial (around 20 years ago)


khorat
Michael Balss

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

[quote=Nick Beale

P.S. The FIU report on Campoformido says that there were miles of dispersal tracks (many unused) that extended as far as Lavariano so that Bf 109 could have been overloooked near Risano.[/QUOTE]

Does the topography of the area say something regarding the location of W.Nr. 770 22x? The landscape features are flimsy to say the least. The first picture is more revealing: flat country side with a wall running perpendicular to where the plane was found, lying on an earthen dispersal. No mountains nor houses to be seen. The wall in the distance is actually an earthen embankment not dissimilar to those which protect agricultural land from rivers prone to flooding.

I'm not familiar neither with the countryside of Villafranca nor Campoformido. Any ideas if those features can be found there?

Cheers
Marc

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Ferdinando, of course when I wrote I meant all three authors.
I don't know how to translate into English the Italian "vostro" otherwise than with "your".
Roberto told me that he had received documents from you and, on the other hand, in his book that report is transcribed with more detail than on page 214 of Air War Italy. I wonder if it would be more appropriate if Roberto had mentioned in the "Documenti consultati" also the source of them (by the way is also my problem ...), but this is not relevant to the present discussion.
If I referred to Risano-Tissano is only because this airport had already been mentioned several times.

Marc, I know the area very well because, as you know, I live a few miles away. Among other things just on Risano runaway I made my first solo flight in the early 70s.
Of course there were many dispersal tracks all around but the majority were north of the railway Udine-Venice, in the triangle between Udine, Villaorba and Osoppo. I don't know dispersal areas around Lavariano except Aiello airfield which was about 15 km to the south east and that, however, was a subsidiary of Gorizia airport.

Returning to the possible places where the photo could have been taken, I think that it may be the the airfield of Ainring in the Berchtesgaden area (Berchtesgaden had no landing groud).

On Geoff Walden's site, "Third Reich in ruins" in Misc Buildings Part 3 http://www.thirdreichruins.com/miscbldgs3.htm
are shown the sites in the area of ​​Berchtesgaden and among these there is also a picture of the main building in the airport of Ainring-Mitterfelden. If you look on Google Earth at the coordinates 47°48'49.00"N 12°57'36.00"E, you can find that building that now is the Police Station.
(Under the photos there is a link to Mapquest that leads exactly on the main building of the former airport).
No trace remains of the old runaway and of the other airport areas but is possible that it was oriented east-west between the river Saalach and Ainring. That embankment visible in the picture may be the bank of the river as is evident also in Google Earth.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Thanks Freddy, for sharing your knowledge of the Udine area, and your detailed study. Ah, field archaeology at it's best;-))

Back to the Ainring hypothesis, my issue is that the general "feel" of the vegetation shown around W.Nr. 770 22x does not match the Austrian vegetation, but much more Northern Italy. Notice the conspicuous absence of all pine trees. If you can consult Jerry Crandall's publication on the JV 44 Doras, you will notice that fruit and poplar trees are not to be seen neither in the quite abundant 1945 photos of that airfield, neither in nowadays shots. Besides that, it's rather hard to find an angle for photography excluding the surrounding mountains, the more so in direction of Saalach river.

On another level, the list of aircrafts found in Ainring as written down in the Technical Intelligence report no 34 is partially published in Crandall 1999, p. 52. All told, seven Bf 109's were accounted for. The sketch plan showing the position of five of them is published in p. 48, and none is "kleine Weisse 7". Agreed, this is no hard and absolute evidence against it's presence in Ainring. Maybe Jerry can help us out here quoting what were the tactical marking of the last two Bf 109's, knowing that one was a burnt out Bf 109 G-10 which was blown or strafed before the airfield was overrun as documented by the photo of p. 62 ?

So there we are, left with our question, Freddy. In my eyes, vegetation is a good lead, and, as seen from Geneva, I would rather stick to North-East Italy...

Cheers
Marc

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Freddy, I think that my passing comment (with several smilies) wasn't worth of such a serious reply. However, while we are at it, Roberto reported the document in more detail because he had a copy of the original and (luckily) much more space than we were granted back in 1996 by our publisher.

This said, my only objection is that we are focusing too much on an area where we have no proofs Golding was.

The only area we know for sure that he visited is Villafranca airdrome and its sorroundings, so why not to theorize that the plane was left (and found) there?

IMHO, of course...

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Ferdinando, you're absolutely right, I know very well the cost of the space in a publication and how much you have to work to get as much as possible between data and photos without affecting the text and at the same time limiting costs as much as possible.. Among other things, disgracefully, I am also chief editor of a journal of historical studies.
It is also true that too much attention has been put to the place where the picture was taken but there was a hope that this would, at least a little, help in identifying the unit.
You say that we know for sure that Golding visited Villafranca but there is a photo, exactly n. 101 of Album 1 whose caption says "Udine 3 sqd" even though, unfortunately, is the only one in all three albums, that names this location.

Marc, this is pure archaeological methodology. Wishing we could joke about "Dendrology". This is what can be defined as an interdisciplinary research.
Well, jokes aside, I must admit that you are right, in fact it really seems the typical vegetation of my area but, at this point, I cannot imagine where to search for an airfield with similar characteristics.
Unfortunately I haven't the publications to which you refer but certainly an aircraft so well preserved would not have escaped the attention and then it would have been recorded in a FIU report.
In order not to discard anything I also tried to see if in Verona Villafranca there could be a bank of that size but I couldn't find any unless it have been removed after the war and this is also possible.
It's almost certain that a bank of that size might be only along a river quite large and important.
In my area embankments like this can only be found along the rivers Tagliamento, Isonzo and Torre. We can exclude that it could be a road or a railway embankment since the upper edge appears to be grassy. On the other hand, beyond it there are trees and this is a feature quite common along the rivers sides as the strip of land between the bank and the river is rarely cultivated because of seasonal flooding.
The only place that could cater to those assumptions could be Maniago since the landing ground was very close to the river Tagliamento and consequently to its embankments. After the war and until the '90s the old airport was used as a shooting range as you can see at the coordinates 46 ° 6'57 .17 "N 12 ° 43'23 .91" E.
Unfortunately, the other photo of the plane, the 259, does not help us to understand any more unless that the plane was parked in a flat area with characteristics very similar to those of the plain of Friuli.
In the background, behind the plane and just over the white 3, I think I can glimpse something like another plane, but I could be wrong.
It is clear too, but this is irrelevant, that this photo was taken at a later time than the other because the panel to the right of "white 3" had been removed. (Ferdinando, it is the same plane.)

The presence of the aircraft could be explained with an emergency landing after being hit in aerial combat. The position of the flaps, set in the landing position and then not retracted, could suggest this hypothesis. What you see to the right of the black cross would seem to be a hole made by a 20 mm bullet shot from behind and does not seem to be compatible with holes produced by a strafing when the aircraft is on the ground. The other holes seem to have been caused by splinters of an explosive charge placed inside the cabin to destroy the plane before the German retreat. Obviously these are only hypotheses.

With regard to the Werknummer, I tried to manipulate the photo, darkening, increasing the contrast, etc.. On the fixed part of the tail rudder is possible to glimpse only the lower part of the sixth number, which is semicircular. This would restrict the field to the following numbers, 0, 3, 5, 6, 8 and 9. From these, as we have seen, are to be excluded 3 and 8 so remain 0, 5, 6 and 9.
I know this does not help very much but it's anyway something to work on.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Glad to know that we agree on that and, BTW, all my best wishes for your activity of giving publishing space to history studies.

In reality I didn't say that, I said that were focusing too much on an area where we didn't have precise proofs of Golding's presence. I however take as a good point the photo captioned as "Udine", and would be more than happy to verify that the "770 22x" was found in or around there, as it would at least be coherent to the place where we know NAGr.11 was based...

I already said in a previous post of this thread that after further examination I agreed with Marc that the two front and rear photographs showed the same aircraft. However, I do not understand why you are referring to the "770 22x" as "white 3", while it is clear that it is a "white 7"...

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/white7_detail.jpg

The smaller number style and placement is perfectly coherent with the one used by NAGr.11, as shown in other photographs of this unit's aircraft.

Hope this helps.

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Could the damage shown in Ferdinando's close-up view possibly have been inflicted with a pickaxe or similar, rather than gunfire or shrapnel?

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

Definitely. Especially when comparing the rear-view photo with the frontal one, where the same area has been completely removed (looted would be the right word?) being clearly the subject of some "souvenir hunter" or of some civilian living in the area, as scrap metal was very valuable at the time and I have more than one reports of entire aicraft being completely dismantled by civilians whose later sold the metal or used it to make pots, pans as well as roofs for henhouses or the like ...

Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen
 

It 's true, is really a little 7, I had not examined well the picture so I thought that the white mark below could be the bottom of a 3, but in hindsight the upper horizontal line would be too short.
Thanks Ferdinando