Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Hello,

After a great deal of piecing together photo and other evidence, the EoE working group has identified an He111 of 7./KG53 that force-landed and burned near Ell, W of Redange, Luxembourg, on 10 May 1940, as carrying the a/c code ?N+AG. The first letter could be a "T", giving us "TN+AG." This apparently is a factory code, and not the A1+?R you would expect from this unit. Probably a new a/c just going into service with 7./KG53, and there not being time change to a unit code before it was shot down on the opening day of the Blitzkrieg. I know that there are experts working on these factory codes. Does TN+AG work for an He111H coming off the assembly line about April or early May of 1940? Is it even a valid He111 factory code? If not a "T", is there any other factory code first letter suggested for that time frame? Finally, if the number fits, what would the corresponding W.Nr. for this a/c be?

Regards,

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Hello Larry

For the LEMB stkz-base I have collected

TN+AK as a He111E
TN+AT as a He111B-2

Your stkz could be a real stkz but i think not from a production block.

Kind regards

Peter van Gogh

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Hello Larry,

If not a T what could you suggest ??

Rémi

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Rémi et al,

Based upon clear photos we're certain of the code ?N+AG for this a/c viewed from the port side. The fuselage was broken and had partially burned at the point of the missing letter, but possibly part of the top right cross of a "T" may be visible. A French report on the interrogation of one of the crewman reports the aircraft markings as T.M.+Q in black, but Peter Cornwell interprets this as deliberate misinformation from the captured crewman, Uffz Willi Wolf. We don't have the NVMs for either the BM, Fl-Stab-Ing. Emil Issel (of Erp.Stelle Rechlin), who baled out over Olizy-sur-Chiers but was killed, or the pilot, Lt. (FNU) Franke, who was shot in the stomach and admitted to the hospital at Redange, Luxembourg. We would greatly appreciate copies of these NVMs if anyone has them. Franke has been previously confused with Lt. Alfred Franke, BO, of AufklSt. 7 Fl.Div, who was killed in the crash of a Hs126 near Piershil, Nethrlands, on May 11th. We have his NVM.

Who can supply these NVMs, and thus clarify the full name of Lt. Franke, and his ultimate fate.

Also, if anyone has clear starboard side photos of the rear fuselage of this crashed He111, it could confirm without question the full coding on this a/c as TN+AG, which can only have been an SKZ. If this is a valid number, I'm still hoping that someone can equate that to a W.Nr.

Regards,

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

It's for sure not TA+N as this row were given to old He 111 B and Do 17 training maschines. But it,s difficult to discuss a photo wich can not be seen.

Junker

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Junker,

We're still processing the most recent photo into our EoE photo data base, but as soon as we have it done, I'll send you directly copies of the two most relevant photos.

Regards,

Larry

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Wonder what Issel made on this plane , quoted to be from Erpr. St. Rechlin nd 10.KG53...maybe really a B Model, used for any tricky thing...

Rémi

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Rémi,

Since the front of the a/c is burned out, I really can't tell the subtype. We have this listed as an 7./KG53 He111H in our loss DB.

Regards,

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Hi Larry,

An old case.
I have pretty clear picture of the left side of the a/c showing N + A1. However, the area around the Balkenkreuz is vague, so I can see whether the N was the first or second letter.
In an earlier discussion on Luftarchiv.de the code was (without further explanation or source) mentioned as A1+NR, see
http://www.luftwaffe-bullet-board.co...highlight=kg53

The same picture I have is by the way in Arnaud Gillets "Victoire de la Chasse Francaise" pt2 p.166. He also mentions the N+A1 and concludes it must have been the A1+NR.

The general interpretation is still that this was an exceptional case where the two parts of the code were switched. So NR+A1 instead of A1+NR. Don't ask me why, but apparently some freedom was allowed e.g. units starting the individual letter from Z instead of A. Or an apprentice "aircraft letter painter" who mis-interpreted the instructions? For all clarity, it can not be a case of an inverted/mirrored picture, since the letter N and the Swastika would then be wrong, which they are clearly not.

Until proven wrong I therefore also stick to the code A1+NR, placed in reverse order.

Kind regards, Pieter

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Pieter,

Ask yourself what is the more likely ? That the aircraft was coded TN+AG - from a known block of He111 SKZ, or that it carried the corrupted unit codes NR+A1 ? For, as Gillet himself notes, that would be exceptional.

Knowing for sure that the unit is 7./KG53, we try to make sense of the markings that can be distinguished on the remains of the burned out fuselage, and stretch the evidence to fit the case. So the N (being irrefutable, and given the fact that this is a 7./KG53 aircraft), has to be the individual letter for it can be no other. Similarly, the other visible letter (conveniently an A) has to be the first letter of the unit code A1. Result ? The unit code A1 appears after the Balkankreuz while the individual letter N and (invisible) 7 Staffel letter R must be those ahead of the Balkankreuz. And from what can be seen in the photo published in VCF2 p166 this may all be fair enough.

Pieter, you know that I respect your views and value your opinions in these matters but in this case, believe me, the fact is that this aircraft was coded TN+AG. Not such a rare avis as was proposed.

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Hi Larry and all,
Is it this He111 we are discussing? It could if so be part of a letter "J" as an alternative to "T". Source:eBay 2011-11-24
Br
Goran

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

I have to agree entirely with Peters comment and would disagree with the supposed 'general interpretation'.

Regards

David

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Goran,

Yes, that is the very same aircraft.

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Thanks for confirming Peter :)
Cheers
Goran

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Hi Peter,

Based on the fact that the single picture I/we had showed a second group of letters that came closest to A1 I thought there was at least a possibility of that story. And yes, sometimes you have to be creative and we've also seen that realitiy is sometimes different than we all expect(ed). So we should not always discard strange/exotic scenarios.

But the story indeed now seems resolved, thanks to Gorans additional picture that clearly shows the G. So indeed a factory code xN+AG. I agree with Goran that the first letter is unlikely to be a T, I don't see any horizontal bar. To me it looks that it should end in a straight right bar: H, I, M or N, with possibly the J or U if we allow for some curve at the bottom that I can not see on the picture. Hopefully that helps to look in the blocks of factory codes.

As always thanks for your persistence!
Apologies for being stubborn on the other scenario :-)

Best regards, Pieter

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Larry,

the first letter is clearly a "T".

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

J not very usual on STKZ if any, at least in "Capo di fila" , but where is the "A" an other picture existing with different angle ??

H-3 production started as soon as nov.dec. 39, a slight chance that new STKZ was still not used , an TN+AP is noted as an H-3 at Küpper on Aug.40

Rémi

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

For comparison I post these two photos with an 'TN+??' to show that 'TN' could be seen on similar He111s as discussed, as well as a TN+AQ seen on an older He111 version.
Source: Old eBay auctions
Br/Goran

Re: Trying to validate Factory code of TN+AG for a He111 shot down on May 10, 1940
 

Pieter,

My apologies, I posted this based only on Page 1 of this thread. Should have moved to second page, which makes this same point. Pieter has agreed with ?N+AG, and I think that it's now pretty well agreed to be TN+AG as the full code.

Below written in response to Pieter's post on page 1.

Clear photos confirm ?N+AC or AG. A new photo close up has confirmed the last letter as G, so ?N+AG is not disputable. The first letter, is, but there does appear to be a cross bar for the top of a "T," which a POW indicates is the first letter, thus TN+AG, all in black. The third letter should be white for a 7 Staffel a/c, and it is clearly black, like the rest of the code. This code isn't reversible into into any combination that yields an "A1" in there. This has to be a SKZ.

Regards,