WNr.2668
 

Hello Gents,

A Bf 109D-1 or a Bf 109 E-7??
E-7: One loss on 2/12/1941 in IV./JG 5 (JFS 3/JGr. Drontheim) flown by Uffz. Heinrich Niehaus. 100%.
or D-1: One loss on 11/9/1942 in JFS 5 near Treux, France. 20%. (Les pertes de jour de la chasse allemande en France, 1942)
1/ one of these losses is wrong.
2/ two links in TOCH:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...2668#post17111 where Remi is writing "2668 to 2696 D/E mixed"
and
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=2668#post797
Where Don Pearson is writing "The second Bf 109 has appeared before in a series of photos taken from the other side. These photos clearly showed the werknummer as 2668."

Can we have a scan of the said photo please?
What's the "good" loss?

Thanks for help.

Franck.

Re: WNr.2668
 

Hi.

I have this as built by Arado Warnemünde (manufacturers code hkz) Bf 109E-1

Later converted to E-7 standard at Erla Werk VII, as shown in their inventory and work lists.

I thus suspect the entry by JFS 5 to be erronous

Surrounding WNr also reported as E-1 and E-7 after refurbishing

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: WNr.2668
 

Dear Andreas,

what's the title of the document where this is reported? I had found it in August 1941 as E-7 but without any information about an conversion.

Best regards
Rasmussen

Re: WNr.2668
 

From repair reports 1939/1940, I have found the following W.Nos. all listed as Bf 109D-1 aircraft:
2607, 2618, 2619, 2667, 2673, 2675, 2678, 2679, 2686, 2690, 2697, 2701, 2707, 2712, 2716, 2724.
Unfortunately, the lists does not say who built these aircraft.

Re: WNr.2668
 

I actually found W.Nr. 2668 listed as a Bf 109D-1 received for repair at Amme-Luther-Seck GmbH, Wien-Atzgersdorf, on 02.07.1940. The aircraft spent 76 days here for a 22% repair of damage.

Re: WNr.2668
 

Thanks all of You,

Thought the debate was over but seems it's not!
Does somebody have a scan of the picture Don Pearson talked about?

Regards, Franck.

Re: WNr.2668
 

That's funny --- for example I have the W.Nr.2690 as E-1 on repair with an 17% damage in Leipzig in May 1940 and the same machine as D-1 on repair in Oschersleben in August 1939.

The W.Nr.2678 was regarding lists from Industriewerk Heiligenbeil an E-1.

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: WNr.2668
 

Rasmussen, I remember Christian K.'s voice. He was telling me about a crossover of WNr. blocks in this area with two Bf 109 manufacturer.

Re: WNr.2668
 

You are correct ... now i remember me too. So could be correct both loss reports, hmmm ... :)

Re: WNr.2668
 

Hi, all.

Very interesting discussion, and until now no conclusion in my opinion... but referring to Rasmussens comment on 2690... I wonder if we have not a intermingled series as mentioned by RT, but rather overlapping series from two manufacturers.

Will have to dig into the references again, as the info I referred to was taken from my notes from archival material.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: WNr.2668
 

Yes, very interesting conversation... I wasn't expected such development! Just a quick answer ... I see it's not possible.
This doesn't concern only one plane: any idea how much? Any possibility to get a figure?

Re: WNr.2668
 

Dead end?

Re: WNr.2668
 

Hi.

Just checked my records.

Bf 109E-7 WNr 2668 appear in the 5-Tage-Meldung from 26.8. - 31.8.41, as an aircraft received for repair.

Thus one would suspect there should be a loss report from shortly before this date.

But - and I guess this is of general importance - looking at the so-called Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen of units, there is one issue we tend to overlook - namely the column Überholung or Overhaul (major maintenance).

The units sent worn aircraft for overhaul to for example Erla VII. My guess is that the aircraft in question was sent from a unit to the repair shops for major overhaul - for example engine change and/or weapons upgrades - and then on to JG 5 shortly after.

Looking at the Flugzeugzuweisungen to Luftflotte 5, we see that they received a Zuweisung for 2 Bf 109E-7 on August 30th 1941, and we also see that WNr 2668 was gone from the inventory of Erla VII by the next 5-days report staring on September 2nd (incidentally there is also a zuweisung of a Bf 109E-7 on this date for Luftflotte 5)

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: WNr.2668
 

Hi, all

Looked into what I use as a main reference for the early Bf 109's, the book 'Messerschmitt Bf 109 ja saksan sotatalous' by Hannu Valtonen.

The book is in finnish, something which probably will render it as unavailable as a reference for a large part of the community.

For the aircraft we are discussing here, the following entries from the overview of production series in the book will be of interest.

Will add more later - I am so %&/%&/ by the fact that there seems to be no way of entering a table into the threads here... the BBCode should contain a [table] tag, but for some reason it does not show on the BBCode overview on this forum.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: WNr.2668
 

Hi, all

Tested a new thing and tried to create a small Excel tabel for these data on my SkyDrive:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx...507&parid=root

As we can see there, according to Valtonen the airframes in the Werknummer series 2655-2696 was E-1's manufactured at Arado.

I have read thorugh the original movement records from Erla and repair records from a bunch of other companies, and come across a lot of discrepancies, most of them connected to what the companies state as being Bf 109D-1 series Werknummer.

A lot of the Werknummer reported does not at all fit the WNr series as reported by Valtonen - in fact they belong to series not listed as a part of the Bf 109 series at all.

I will not yet speculate towards a solution... but were maybe more Bf 109D's built than we have known?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: WNr.2668
 

Andreas

There are quite some question marks as it already is in Valtonen's book. I don't read Finnish, so what I say is of course just relating to the numbers and not what might be explained in the text.

Bf 109A WNr 760-810, 883-884, 994-997, 1000-1009
Not sure how he wants to put in the 20 known A-1 (or A-0 if you read other sources). (Prien in JFV Teil 1 avoids the A model problem by not listing them at all.)

Bf 109B WNr 301-375, 0998-1073, 3001-3090
Wnr 1000-1009 are listed as both A models and B models
(Prien: WNr 272-416, 540-617, 998-1064, 1701-1719, 3000-3089, also explaining that not all of the WNr were delivered, at least not as B models)

Bf 109C WNr 1720-1777
(Prien: WNr 1720-1777)

Bf 109D: WNr as per your list, but why would Mtt build four D models WNr 1189-1192 before building their B models?
(Prien does not commit himself totally with regard to WNr of the D models, although he states WNr 3090-3170 was for 80 D-1 when this in fact makes 81 airframes. Since he has Fieseler building B-1 WNr 3000-3089 instead of Valtonen who has Fieseler building 3001-3090, he of course has to. However the interesting fact with Prien is that he lists many other blocks which Valtonen does not do, such as 2110-2150, 2365-2370, 2440-2476, 2513-2625, 2650-2730, 2812-2940, but here as well state that not all were delivered, at least not as D models.)

Bf 109E-0 WNr 1781-1790
(Prien: WNr 1781-1790)

Continuing with the E-1 models creates more and more differences between Valtonen and Prien, but I would like to know why Valtonen puts the first Mtt E-1 airframe as Wnr 1778 and the first E-0 as WNr 1781. Makes no sense to me...

Cheers
Stig

Bf 109