812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hello!

This question was first posted at Britmodeller -forum, but no answers ( http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/i...opic=234911278 ). Although originally this was a camo and markings question even the Swordfish identities (RAF(FAA) code) would be a big step forward.


All the news about the magnificent Airfix Swordfish kit have pushed me for search of more info about 812 squadron. Their participation in the Petsamo raid July 1941 connects Swordfish also to the Finnish aviation history.

My copy of Stuart Lloyd's FAA camo and markings book is on loan right now but IIRC it had a picture or two about the 812 sqn Swordfishes? But my question really is what individuals did take part in the raid (there should have been nine of them, see link 2 below)? And what was their camouflage and markings then? Anyone knows anything? Any decals readily available for these are fanciful dreaming, I fear.


thanking in advance,
Kari



Some reading about the Petsamo-Kirkenes raids:

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on...es_and_Petsamo

2) http://fleetairarmarchive.net/RollofHonour...kenes_1941.html

3) http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/Lond...zette/38300.pdf

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Kari,

Doesn't the fleetairmarchive link give the individual names of the Swordfish crew members involved, give or take a few omissions?

Regards,

Leendert

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Kari

Am I missing something here?
The nine crews (except for two individuals) are listed in your source 2. Unfortunately the individual aircraft taking part seems to be unknown, so if you want to make a model or link the individuals to a given aircraft, I suppose it could be difficult. However FAA was not renowned for using individual markings or strange paintings, so most if not all Swordfish wore the same standard camouflage, which no doubt is included in the book you have (unfortunately not in my own possession)

Cheers
Stig

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hello!

Thanks. Crew names yes, individual aircraft identities nyet. Difficult to model, yes.

Search continues. Thank you, gentlemen.

Kari

PS Sorry for the brewity, catched flu and fewer today.

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Kari,
Have you looked at the log of HMS Furious for June 1941? It may contain what you want. It is at The National Archives, Kew, piece number ...
ADM 53/114291

Hope you feel better soon,
Bruce

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hello Kari,
Have you looked in the Forums archives ? there is a full article in January 2006.
In the mean time I will search my paperwork for serials. and get back to you soon.
In the mean time I have these 19 names as losses for the 30/31st July 1941. All Finn's I beleive.
30-7-41
Lanc Corp. Arvo Johannes Halmes
Soldier. Usko Armas Hilkos
Lanc Corp. Erkki Eino Lehtikangas
Soldier. Válno Henrik Lindfors
Frontier Gard. Holger Gdeon (?) Lindroos
Korn Thord Une Nordfors
Soldier. Vilno Nestori Schroderus
Sgt. Paul Matias Taos
Gunner Arro Ylenius
31-7-41
Sgt. Pentti Kaarlo Alaajos
Soldier. Kauko Kustaa Enroos
Lanc Corp. Martti Ignatius
Soldier. Ernst Alfred Ollus
Soldier. Eino Antti Palo Anius
Lanc Corp. Armas Vademar Pirttikangas
Lanc Corp. Aarre Erkki Posti-Ahokas
Soldier. Reino Edvard Suokas
Soldier Martti Olavi Terás
Soldier Yrtó Arro Ylenius

These may have been victums of the attack ?

Alex

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hello!

According this Finnish language Wikipedia page ( http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liinahamarin_pommitus_1941 ) casualties at Petsamo were:

- three dead (two German soldiers and merchant seaman (Finn?))

- four Finnish civilian wounded, one of them seriously

One Norwegian civilian ship was sunk with it's rum cargo.

I did not check you namelist (from the Finnish War Casualties database ?), they are in all probability from other sites and sectors.

The quick search with terms Liinahamarin pommitus brought also this photo:

http://www.palasuomenhistoriaa.net/k...slides/105.jpg

http://www.palasuomenhistoriaa.net/k...slides/105.jpg

It is one photo from thread http://mave.foorumi.eu/viewtopic.php...301&start=1905 (in Finnish). The Finnish text claims the photo is taken just after the Liinahamari attack. I wonder the ships which were there not during the attack, though. Perhaps photo is taken much more later?
LATER EDIT: In The London Gazette -article there reads clearly: "...Other than above, there were only small harbour craft present at Liinahamari, and three motor-boats, possibly E-boats. So I had it wrong and the German looking boats in the photo most likely are the mentioned E-boats. Pretty accurate reporting from the FAA aviators, if you ask me.

The thread also has photo of one dead British aviator for which I wish not put a hot link. I haven't ever before seen the mave.foorumi -photos and don't know who posesses them.

Translate.google can handle Finnish to English translation (but very poorly).


I also remember that Finnish magazine Suomen kuvalehti would have had an article with photos of the Liinahamari attack in a 1941 issue. They still publish and homepage is: http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/


In meantime there has been activity also at the Britmodeller thread (also by me). Perhaps new info too?


Cheers,
Kari

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hi guys

I'd still like to know the names of the pilots who shot down all of those Albacores!!

Cheers
Brian

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

A quick look in Sturtivant has dredged up five aircraft linked to 812 Sq in July 1941.
P4277 (C) 812 7/41
V4375 to 812 7/41
V4380 (G) to 812 7/41
V4384 812 Sq accident Cat Y 18/7/41
V4389 crashed on Petsamo raid 30/7/41 S/L Rideal unhurt POW? Possibly S/L CJK Kindell intended but no Swordfish lost?

There may be more but my eyes are a little sore from a cold so I'm calling a halt here. I'll look again another time.

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hello!

Bruce. Apologies for the oversight and no reply. Thank you for the archival code. If only I ever could visit there. But I try to harass some colleagues of a colleague visiting there and then the piece number is golden.

Graham. Just the right stuff, thank you very much! Perhaps something can gleaned out of all this (and Britmodeller).

BTW According Finnish Navy HQ war diary (archival code spk 18708) the norwegian merchant ship sunk was named Rodvaer. The oil tanks were damaged and could not be used without reparations. Pier 2 was damaged from both ends ("F" and "H" from 812 sqn) and Veneniemi (seems to be Swedish Quay in the British map) pier was also damaged ("C" from 817 sqn).


Cheers,
Kari

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hello Kari,
Sorry for the delay.
I agree with Graham's serial numbers and would add these as possible also.
P4136
P4219
V4380

The names given , Rideal and Kindrell are it seems wrong as 812 had NO losses apparently as ALL Swordfish returned to the ship.
So one more serial number to make the nine Swordfish. Perhaps V9732 but am not sure.

all the best
Alex

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

I agree with P4136 but P4219 may not have joined 812 in time for the raid.

V4380 I listed - is this a typo for another or are we looking for another two?

V9732 is not a Swordfish serial nor an obvious typo?

V4515 was not delivered to the RN until 6/7/41, but did go to 812 Sq. and was with it on Ark Royal later in 1941, but perhaps too late for Petsamo?
V4574 was also with 812 on the Ark (coded V) but as it was not delivered until 31/7/41 clearly wasn't at Petsamo: this is also true for all later serials.

L2840 with 812, accident at Hatston 9/7/41 - so not Petsamo?
L7632 was G3C then B with 812 on unspecified dates, but from similar examples I suspect an earlier commission.
L7644 812/H 5/41, 767 Sq. 9/41 - Possible
L7676 812 Sq 1941 (after April). - Possible
P4136 812 Sq 1941 (after March) - Possible
P4146 812 Sq 9/41 - probably not
V4293 821Sq 1941 but after November?
V4375 from 7/41 - surely as it was lost from Furious 21/8/41 (From previous list)

It seems that the unit replaced all(?) its aircraft in summer 1941, which is possibly why it is described as only having nine aircraft for the Petsamo raid, with later arrivals identified as being on the Ark later in the year.

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hello!

Thank you Graham. If I got it right there is now three "good" code/letter pairs for Petsamo raid Swordfishes. All three letter codes are also supported by the attack map shown at the Britmodeller thread:

P4380 / G
P4277 / C
L7644 / H

Of these L7644 was with 812 sqn May to Sep 1941 and the other two were delivered just before the Petsamo raid?

"H" (L7644) seems to be the only one which achieved hit with it's torpedo (No 2 pier/jetty). No 4 Quay was target for "C" and No 1 Quay for "G" and neither of these quays are reported damaged.

As far as I am concerned the code (markings) question has been solved satisfactorily even if some detail questions remain. But all new pieces of information are welcome.


Thanks again,
Kari

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hello Graham,
My typo V9732 should have been L9732 but does not fit after all .
Also with regard to V4380 again my typo.
Meant to have put V4370.

V4384 I think is out as Cat "Y" 18.7.41 meant that repairs would have to be done other than with the Squadron.

With regard to V4389, perhaps she crashed on board on return from the op, S/L Rideal unhurt ?

S/L E B Kiddell was involved in a much earlier crash L2829, 2-7-1940, and although taken pow was shot and killed whilst escaping.

S/L CJK or CJW Kindell was connected to Swordfish V4389 but not killed as he was in an accident in L2780 on 12-4-42 and again in Albacore N4390 on 14-6-42.

So I now offer these possibles -
L7644
L9765
P4136
P4277
V4364
V4370
V4375
V4380
V4389

Alex

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Just a note that the two (three?) photographs of 812 Sq aircraft in Stuart Lloyd's book are from an earlier period, April 1940.

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Hello, just in hope that the four 880A flight Sea Hurricanes may have been found ?

I offer the following four.
W9216
W9218
W9220
W9223.
These four Were from the Royal Naval Deposit Account ( RN aircraft held by an RAF Storage Unit) - 27 MU at Shawbury.
Going to 880 Sqdn from around early June,1941.

Alex

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Our friend Geoffrey Sinclair offers the following:

Hurricanes:
W9216, W9220, W9223 possible
W9218 23 July 1941 MSFU reports Sea Going Hurricane W9218 arrived from Langley in the afternoon, catapult launches 28 and 29 July, local flying 30 and 31 July

Other possible Hurricanes W9215, W9219

Others to MSFU W9208 (19 July), W9209 (27 July), W9279 (24 July)
Geoffrey Sinclair

Re: 812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid?
 

Thanks Stig, hoped that my post would reawaken the questions of the aircraft on the July 41 Operation.
So maybe 3 out of 4 isn't a bad result so far ��