Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Hi guys

Were there any Macchi 202s flying from Kos and Rhodes in October/November 1943? If so, which unit(s) were involved?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

AFAIK, no Italian Cobelligerent Air Force aircraft (by that time there were only that and the ANR, and in their very early starting days...) operated from outside Southern Italy (by that time a few units still were in Sardinia but later moved to the peninsula), so I guess that might be the case of some wrong ID, unless there are photographs to back up such question...

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

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Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Hi Ferdinando

Actually I did mean ANR units. There were reports of Mc202s being strafed on Kos during October, and Mc202s intercepting Allied aircraft during this period. Presumably misidentifications then.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

In case of hypothesis of ANR aircraft, this is even more out of question.

Apart from torpedo-bomber S.79s operating from Greece in July-August 1944 and of Transport S.81s operating in North-East Europe in the Spring-Summer of 1944, no other ANR aircraft ever operated outside Italy and beyond the area South of the Apennines dividing Tuscany and Emilia Romagna (a couple shuttle missions to/from Austria were made together with the Luftwaffe in the spring of 1944).

Some damaged and inefficient planes could have been left behind by the Regia Aeronautica after the Armistice in former airfields, which could account for the strafed ones.

The rest is wrong ID by Allied Pilots (they even identified Fiat G.50s over Lake Balaton instead of Rumanian IAR 80/81s...).

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Hi Ferdinando

Many thanks for clarifying the position. Yes, in the light of your information, clearly misidentifications by Allied pilots.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Hi Ferdinando

Apparently a book on 154° Gruppo written in 2008 by Eugenio Eusebi and Pietro Mazzardi states that aircraft fom this unit escorted German bombers raiding Leros in November 1943. Mc202s, CR42s and G.50s were based on Rhodes, so when did they depart?

I'm now confused again!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

I haven't find any evidence with Google but it seems to me that German pilots used some captured Macchis over the Aegean during the autumn 1943. Or at least I read that years ago.

For sure JG 77 used MC 205 in Italy, so maybe I'm mixing things happening in distincts theaters.

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

This would be surprising given the Italians' quitting the Axis in September and the Germans' subsequent treatment of Italian troops in the Aegean including massacres, imprisonment and deportation to forced labour in the Reich.

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

I know nothing about Italian fighters flown by Germans in the Dodecanese... seems to me quite an extravagant info, to use a mild euphemism...

Also, I repeat, no ANR fighter units or pilots ever operated outside Italy, and that's a fact.

Of course this has to do with the reliability of sources and texts and I cannot speak for others. Nevertheless, the statement of planes from 154° Gruppo of Regia Aeronautica escorting German bombers two months after the Armistice is so pure fantasy that can only be explained with a typo from the printer...

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

The book about the history of the 154° Gruppo contains a few details about the activities of pilots of this unit after the armistice: they come from the Achille Vigna book about Italian AF in the period 1943-1952.

According to these sources, C.202 flew escorts to german bombers. They operated in the "Reparto Aereo Dodecanneso", formed on 30 october 1943.
One pilot was lost on 14 dicembre 1943 , shot down off Rhodos with his C.202: serg. magg. pil. Domenico Sancristoforo, allegedly the first pilot lost in combat by ANR.

The name of this pilot don't appear in the official loss personnel list (ANR and RA) held at the Italian AF historical Office (but this list is not 100% complete).

Two pictures are published: one with C.202's having spiral painted on their spinner, allegedly "the allarm patrol at Rhodos Maritsa"; a C.202 with german insigna, whose camouflage, according to the caption, was "very probably due" to the work of a maintenance unit operating in the Aegean when Luftwaffe markings were painted (near the aircraft, serg. magg. pil. Luigi Nazzari).

I've simply write down the info contained in the book in order to inform Ferdinando, the top ANR expert, of these details.

I don't know if they are true or not....

Gianandrea

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Thanks Gianandrea for the interesting info.

One always has to learn, but a few "allegedly" thet you cautiously put in your text does show that these aren't informations that can't be taken simply with face value.

In my researches I haven't yet found any single document reporting such activities and/or the facts described in the texts you quote (not in any official or unofficial order of battle, text or diary - Like the Historical ANR diary which has entries since 23 september 1943 - there is a word on those operations and losses, which would have had a certain propaganda effect, if true) .

Of course I am not the measure of anything, but that in over 30 years nothing on that has crossed my path is, to say the least, very peculiar (not to mention the anachronistic behaviour of that unit which - as Nick correctly underlined - would have done the exact opposite of all other Italian units in face of the Germans which by then didn't trust at all the Italians...) .

At ay rate, since also the book of Achille Vigna doesn't offer any source for those statements, I guess I will have to ask him directly.

Thanks for having pointed out the thing and urged me to dig deeper into that.

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Hi Gianandrea

Thanks for the input. I must this is all rather intriguing - I await the next instalment!

Does the book indicate how serg. magg. pil. Domenico Sancristoforo was killed? You mention 'shot down' and 'in combat' but who by?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Just a little update on the topic.

I phoned to my old friend Achille Vigna and - out of the blue - asked him about the info he published in his book on 1999.

As usual, his reply was fully honest: he had reported on paper the oral memories of an old pilot friend of his (by now deceased) and that there are no other sources to support those.

At this point, after having asked to be updated if something more should turn out, there is little one could do, except for one thing:

In his book - page 116 - Vigna reports that "...the C.202s of 154° Gruppo escorted (betweeen November and December 1943) the Ju 88s of II./KG 54 and of II./KG 6 as well as the Ju 87s of I./St.G. 3 in missions against British convoys..."

It would be great to ask to the people in this forum if there are traces of such event in the diaries/memories/documents of those units... but this will be the object of a separate post.

P.S. concering the two photographs quoted, one was described by Vigna to me as being published also on a monography of the C.202 and, following this clue, the only one which could be is one already positively identified and located in one of Luftwaffe fighter schools in Orange, thus not being at all related to the unit in the Aegean. I've not yet been able to have a look at the other, so I suspend any opinion until then.

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

To complicate further things (as if it was necessary...), there is an entry I have found in a listing of Italian military personnel deceased in RSI service (source: Archivio Centrale dello Stato, Rome), where "Serg. Pil. SANCRISTOFORO Domenico" is reported deceased in aerial combat on 14 December 1943 near Scarpanto.

But (there's always a "but"), the unit is given as "Rep. Germanico L.02808" (literally "German Unit L.02808"), which implies that he was operating in a yet undetermined German unit under German command.

The plot thickens...

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

L.02808 looks like a Feld Post Nummer — can anyone identify it?

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

02808

(Mobilmachung-1.1.1940) Stab Infanterie-Divisions-Nachschub-Führer 17,
(15.7.1942-24.1.1943) Kommandeur der Infanterie-Divisions-Nachschub-Truppe 17.


No relationship to the Luftwaffe or to the Mediterranean area. The 17.Inf.Div. never left Russia and in fall/Winter 1943-44 it was fighting while withdrawing westward from Taganrog to Nikopol in S Ukraine under XXIX. Armee-Korps/AOK 6.

Larry

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Hello Ferdinando,

The Fp.Nr. has to be 02 708 nad not 02 808.
02 708 1941-10.02.44 Fl.H.Kdtr. (E) See 119/XI Suda

It is not a unit, it is the airfield (Seeflughafen) of Suda. There was the basis of 3./A.Gr.126

13.07.43 3./Seeaufklärungsgruppe 126 in Skaramanga von 3./Aufkl.Gr.126 (See) aufgestellt, Fp.Nr. 53 801
09.05.41-20.09.42 u. 18.02.43-13.02.43 in Skaramanga, 06.42 zeitweise von Skaramanga nach Suda,
07.43-10.43 in Skaramanga, 17.10.43-15.10.44 auf Leros und Milos. Das Flugplatz-Kdo. (15 Mann) ist nach
Leros verlegt und Dienstbetrieb aufgenommen. Die Staffel hat verlegt mit 6 Maschinen, 16 Mann fliegendes
Personal, einen Staka und 25 Mann technisches Personal. Funktrupp von Kavalla nach Leros versetzt.
Teile 06.44-09.44 Volos und Prevesa, mit He 60, T.8W G2 und Ar 196, Ende 03.42 mit 5 He 60 and 3
Fokker T.8 W, Mitte Juni 42 mit 9 Ar 196 und 3 He 60 in Reserve;
20.09.42-18.02.43 in 9./KG 100 umben., 18.02.43 nach Wiederaufstellung von KG 100 wieder zu A.Gr. 126

byron

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Brian,

Vignas book says "shot down by RAF fighters".

I have to add that only 154° Grp book maKes mention of Reparto Aereo Dodecanneso as such, Vigna's book says only that: "154° Gruppo went on operating in Aegean".


Gianandrea

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Guys, some really great work and posts on this thread by so many "experten" on this Board.

This is what we are all about.

THX

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

As done in the other related thread, I seize the opportunity to thank Byron for his contribute.

I am enclosing a reduced image of the list where Serg. Sancristoforo is reported as KIA. It is clearly readable the "L.02808" attributed to the German Unit.

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/RSI_loss_list.jpg

It could certainly be a typing error instead of "L.02708", but allow me to still mantain a small percentage of possibility that it could mean something else (eventually a list of codes linked to...?)

At any rate, the typing error is the most logical explaination and the report Byron attached seems to give no space to the presence of Italian pilots (or, at least, did ignore that).

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Hi Ferdinando,

have news for you,

2./Aufklärungsgruppe 125

FF. Sancristoforo Domeniko (+), Cant Z 506 100% m. BF. Uffz. Werner Schmidt aus 2./126 (+), 1. Wart Uffz. Fritz Sardemann (+), 1. Wart Ogfr. Johann Wulf (+), 1. Wart Ogfr. Erich Buschke (+), Uffz. Schuh der RV-Kp. z.b.V. 6 (+) Karpathos, Beschuss von 4 Beaufighter vom Sqn. 47, 14.12.43 zw. Insel Kassos und Kreta,


I had his loss in my book but didn`t notice it.
The L 02 808 is surly a Fp.Nr. it schould be 02 708.


Conclusion: There were italian airmen in the Luftwaffe after the armistice, but not many of them, Domenico was an exception.



byron

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Hi.

Here is the original loss record from GenQu:

http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=108821

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

Friends, you really made my day...!

This entry (Byron, thanks...really) debunk a lot of things and - at least - gives us the real reason and facts about the death of poor Serg. Sancristoforo.

May I dare to say that this info almost puts the rest of the story of Italian flying for/with the Germans after the Armistice in the Aegean...?

But until a slim chance exists that there are some proofs of that, I think it would be fair to wait further.

I think however that this is a proof of how much can be found when the knowledge of many is focused on even a small detail.

Re: Mc202s in Dodecanese Oct/Nov 1943?
 

THanks to all of you for this very interesting thread!

Gianandrea