Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Does anyone know if Erich Hartmann's Bf 109 was damaged in a dogfight on 20Aug43? If not were any other Bf 109's damaged in III/JG52.

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Michael,

What date do you need exactly, August 20 or October 20?

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

My mistake the 20Oct43.

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Nokose,

there was actually no JG 52 loss reported on 20 October 1943 (to any cause), at least not listed in Niko Fast´s loss list in volume IV of his JG 52 work. The closest JG 52 losses were on 19 and 21 October, but they were from I. Gruppe and 13. (Slovak) Staffel. The nearest loss from Hartmann´s 9./JG 52 occurred on 22 October 1943, when Uffz. Walter Buschmann was wounded in aerial combat near Kirovograd in Bf 109 G-4 WNr. 14857 (and DOW on 10 January 1944).

Hope this helps,

Ota

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Thank you Ota. Were there any Bf 109's listed as damaged especially Hartmann's plane on the 20Oct43 in air combat.

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

AFAIK there were no aircraft of JG 52 reported lost or damaged (with extent of damage exceeding 10 %) on this date. Of course, we cannont rule out some minor damage that could be repaired by the unit itself. Is there any reliable source suggesting that Hartmann´s 109 could have been damaged on 20 October 1943?

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Ota, I was reading through "Red Star Airacobra" and there was an incident that the author stated as a wingman he put some rounds into a Bf 109 that shot down his leader. He was then shot and damaged by the Bf 109. Hartmann claimed a double kill of P-39s that morning.

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Hi.

If he in fact hit the aircraft of Hartmann, the damage would have been lower than the 10% damage limit that would trigger a loss report.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Andreas, here is his description "A red ball of my cannon's shell instantly covered this short distance and pierced the Messer's engine. There was no burst and it meant that it had been an armour-piercing one. One large calibre bullet passed in front of the enemy's cockpit and another pierced it through." He stated he was 20-25 meters from the plane. I believe it was his second mission.

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Hi.

I believe this must have been one of two:

- Complete and utter combat induced delusion

- The recollection of this mission has been mixed up with events from another mission

The cannon of a P39 was afaik the 37mm M4, firing a shell that even if it was an armour-piercing one would blow straight through the engine of a Messerschmitt, rendering it completely useless, and if it went through the cockpit as described make minced meat of the pilot inside.

Three hits from a 37mm in the close vicinity of the cockpit seems an unlikely case for a below 10% damage to the said aircraft.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Hello
Soviet got only HE rounds for the 37mm M4 cannon of P-39s, so one possibility is that it was a dud, the "large calibre bullet" probably means a 12,7mm HMG bullet. So IMHO the .5 hits are possible, it was possible, depending where they hit, that a plane hit by a couple .5 bullets was repared in the unit, and capable to fly on next day or a couple days later. A 37mm hit, even a dud, probably meant an engine change, but that could also be done in the unit, if there was a spare engine available and a spare engine cowling.

Juha

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Andreas and Juha, thank you for your input on possible damage that could be caused. I've checked some of the facts as best I can from the book. The date seems to match other incidents of losses in the unit and claims of victories. The possiblity is that the .37mm might have come close but looked like a hit in combat conditions (trick of the eye) along with a even one minor hit from the machine gun.Shortly after he was receiving the hits from the Bf 109. I'm sure he was using his log book to keep him on track. The training he had just getting out of flight school was the reason he gave for firing so few rounds. He stated his instructors had told them to conserve ammuntion while training. I've seen things like that establish bad things in dangerous situations.

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

Hartmann claimed a double on 20Oct43 of two Airacobra and Rall also claimed an Airacobra in this time period. Ml.Lt Viktor Grigorevich Korolev's Airacobra was shot down but was repairable and his wingman Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Mariinskiy's Airacobra was damaged. The Airacobras of the 129 GIAP were the victims in this case but there were more losses then these that morning so it's not possible to say that this was the incident involving Hartmann for sure.

Re: Hartmann on the 20Oct43
 

I was going through "Fighter Aces of the Lufwaffe" by Toliver and Constable (from Schiffer books) and on page 132 was a picture of Hartmann and Bimmel Mertens "NEAR Miss Bimmel Mertens, crew chief, and Erich Hartmann examine a bullet hole in the windshield of Hartmann's Bf 109". Does anyone have any idea when that picture might have been taken?