Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hello,

According to our EOE Luft loss/damages DB:

"October 16, 1939: 1./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. Shot down by Green Section of No. 603 Squadron (S/L A. D. Farquhar, F/Lt A. V. R. Johnstone, and F/O P. J. Ferguson) and crashed in the sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Siegmund Storp, (Beo) Oberfw Hugo Köhnke and (Bf) Oberfw Hans Hielscher all captured slightly injured, rescued by trawler Dayspring. (Bs) Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% loss."

A well-known, and previously published-photo exists of what is reported to be this a/c on cables being salvaged out of the water with a crane. It appears to have some kind of shield on the nose, but it doesn't appear to be the "gunsight on an umbrella" on a white shield, known to be used by this unit at that time. Does anyone have any other photos showing this a/c after being salvaged from the water, especially if they show the nose area where this shield appears to be, or the rear fuselage displaying the 4D+DH code. Does anyone have any info on the W.Nr. of this a/c? Surely many photos were taken of this Ju88A-1 after it was salvaged, but we haven't been able to locate them.

Related to this question, another 1./KG30 Ju88 crash-landed at Westerland, Isle of Sylt, upon returning from this mission. It is reported as:

"October 16, 1939: 1./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. Crash-landed at Westerland on return starboard engine badly damaged in attacks by F/O C. Robertson and P/O J. S. Morton of No. 603 Squadron following attack on British Fleet in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. (Ff) Lt Horst von Riesen and rest of crew unhurt. Aircraft 45% damaged but repairable."

From the German side of this story, are any photos of this one known to exist, and does anyone have info on the W.Nr. of this one?

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.40
 

Larry,

You refer to the attached photo. The badge of the nose is patently the diving eagle of I./KG30 with what seems to be a dark base colour. The rear fuselage and tail do not appear to have been recovered but other photos will undoubtedly have been taken of what did survive. This has to be the aircraft of STORP as the cockpit canopy is intact and POHLE famously jettisonned his prior to ditching.

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.40
 

Peter,

I just CCed you on the initial artist's reference package for doing a major painting of this raid. I do have this photo previously from you of Storp's plane being salvaged. The insignia on the nose is a mystery to me. This aircraft should be 4D+DH and either carry a "white shield with a gunsight over an umbrella" or the new I./KG30 diving eagle insignia on a white shield. This is a dark shield with a thin white edge. This looks more like the II./KG30 diving eagle insignia on a red shield with a thin white outline. Can anyone figure out what we're looking at here? Doesn't fit my understanding of I./KG30 unit markings during this period at all.

It's rather important to sort this out, as this a/c is likely to be featured in a major painting in the EoE Phoney War Volume, showing attacking Spitfires engaging this a/c with HMS Southampton and the Firth of Forth RR Bridge in the background. Need to know W.Nr. to determine what this insignia is. The photo confirms that this a/c had a 3-bladed prop, but it would sure be useful to know the W.Nr. of this a/c, which should have been able to be determined by RAF intelligence from the salvaged portion of the wreck. This must exist somewhere in British records. I've also got to believe that better photos exist somewhere of the insignia carried by this Ju88.

Who can help here?

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.40
 

I didn't know the Firth of Forth was in Scotland. The following book may contain the photos and references you need to get the remaining details.

http://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffe-Over.../dp/1849950008



You may also wish to contact the RAF Museum:


http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/




Ed

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.40
 

Sadly it does not.

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.40
 

Clint,

Thanx for the book reference. I don't think that I have this one in my library here in the States, but we'll check it out.

Your help is appreciated.

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.40
 

Larry, Ed West linked the book but I have a copy and it does not add anything to what is already known about these incidents.

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hi Larry

You either have a typo, or your information is at fault - S/L Douglas Farquhar, F/Lt A V R "Sandy" Johnstone and F/O F J "Ian" Ferguson were all from Green section of 602 (City of Glasgow) squadron and not 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron AAF, although I agree that the days activities were shared by both Auxiliary squadrons.

Telegram received from A.C.M. Sir Hugh Dowding GCVO, KCB, CMG, ADC AOC-in-C Fighter Command "Well done. First blood to the Auxiliaries" from 602 Squadron ORB - 17 October 1939.

"Sandy" Johnstone states "Farquhar decided to come on the detail this morning and chose to lead my Section (Green) with myself and Ian Ferguson".

Sources: "Lions Rampant - The story of 602 Spitfire Squadron" by Douglas McRoberts and "Spitfire into War" by AVM "Sandy" Johnstone CB DFC AE.

Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the photo though - sorry

cheers

Allan

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Local story-tails to ruminate from.

http://www.hmsmohawk.org.uk/MOHAWKS%...20War%20II.htm

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Ed,

I've forwarded this info to the EoE artist, Jack Fellows, for use with creating the concept for the 16.10.39 Firth of Forth painting. I think he will find this very useful, as will we as we reconstruct this mission for the text.

Thanx for sending this.

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hello,

As a follow up to Peter Cornwell's posting of the salvage photo of the Ju88A-1 shot down during the I./KG30 attack against shipping in the Firth of Forth on October 16, 1939, has anyone located any intelligence reports resulting from the recovery of this aircraft? Assuming that it was recovered soon after it was shot down, this would have been the first substantial remains of a Ju88 recovered by the British, and presumably would have been the subject of detailed inspection and additional photography.

1) For captioning the photo that Peter shows above, does anyone know when the a/c was actually recovered from the sea? It is possible that this was not close to the time it was actually shot down.

2) Has anyone located in British historical files the intelligence reports based upon the recovery of this a/c, hopefully including additional photos of it's markings? These reports might well have included the W.Nr. of the a/c, and close-up photos of the shield emblem visible on the starboard nose.

3) Does anyone know if either in 1939 or since any effort has been made to locate and salvage the remains of the Ju88A-1 of Hptm. Pohle, the Gr Kdr, "ditched in the sea off Crail" during the same action? It reportedly carried the code 4D+AK. This may lie in very deep water.

Peter has now updated the info on this loss as follows:

"October 16, 1939: 1./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. Shot down by Spitfires of ‘B’ Flight No.603 Squadron (F/L P. Gifford, F/O K. MacDonald, and F/O C. Robertson) and crashed in sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.55 p.m. Also engaged by elements of Yellow Section of No.602 Squadron. FF Oberlt Siegmund Storp (Staffelkapitän), BO Oberfw Hugo Köhnke, and BF Oberfw Hans-Georg Hielscher all captured slightly injured - rescued by trawler Dayspring, BS Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% write-off."

Thanx for any assistance,

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

I had contact with Pohle many years ago after acquiring an original sepia toned print of the Ju 88. Although I no longer have it I think the inscription on the back was something to the effect of "The first enemy aircraft aircraft downed over Britain" and, I think, a date stamp of something like 20 October. Those clues led me to think it was Pohle's a/c and his letter to me is reproduced bottom right of page 39 of Blitz Then & Now (Vol 1), but when I read his letter (and as Peter Cornwell has pointed out) the intact canopy rather indicated otherwise - and Storp seems likely I suppose.

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Andy,

Thanx for your comments. If your memory of the date stamp is correct, this would indicate that Storp's a/c was salvaged from the water within a few days of the crash. This suggests that the wreckage would have received careful study by the British, which should mean additional photos and records exist from the study of this a/c. What happened to those records? Has anyone discovered them in the NA or elsewhere?

Can anyone confirm this?

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hi all,

Here come my two pennies on the Ju 88 photo. First I may point out II/KG 30 emblem. This Group was activated at Barth on 01.12.1939 but only began operations in March 1940 (because of weather). This rules out 16. October 1939 crash in my mind.

Possible harbour or harbour cranes. No luck on cranes in Scotland and elsewhere. Harbour? Only one I found matching in Britain is perhaps Whitby. A lot further south than Edinburgh and Port Seton, even futher south than "Cresswell Bay" [Druridge Bay, near Cresswell, North-Humberland] . Does harbour stucture in background in Ju 88 photo look similar to Whitby´s? Maybe one of Scotlands harbours has such pier and cranes, I do not know.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/226240

Then to II/KG 30 aircraft salvaged. Attached is detail of K-Report on Ju 88 aircraft, downed by AA fire, matching what I belive likely had intact canopy upon salvage: The 4D+AP (Yellow A) had three of its crew found still inside of it and lots of papers. Report does not state aircraft serial number.

Regards
ed

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Ed,

Interesting theory which would explain the problem with the shield on the nose of the a/c that doesn't seem to fit either of the I./KG30 losses on Oct. 16, 1939, in the Firth of Forth. Besides the shield problem, it also has bothered me that this likely being a Fjord-type geography, where the crashes that day might well have been in very deep water, either of these plane wrecks might well have been very hard to reach by divers. It has also bothered me that there are no apparent records of this relatively intact a/c wreckage undergoing intense scrutiny by RAF Intel. Of course, a loss date of March 29, 1940, doesn't fit if Andy is correct about having once seen a photo with a date around the end of October, 1939, stamped on the back. I certainly think that it's worth asking now if this could be the March 29, 1940, loss undergoing salvage. Any more thoughts by anybody on this idea? Could Ed be onto something here?

"March 29, 1940: 6./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. Shot down by naval AA fire and crashed into Cresswell Bay, off coast of Northumberland, 9.30 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Rudolf Quadt (Staffelkapitän), (Beo) Fw Gustav Hartung, and (Bf) Uffz Andreas Wunderling killed, (Bs) Uffz Ernst Hesse missing. Aircraft 4D+AP 100% write-off.
The bodies of Oberlt Quadt, Fw Hartung, and Uffz Wunderling were recovered from the salvaged aircraft and buried at Chevington on April 9. The body of Uffz Hesse was later washed ashore on Lynemouth Beach and buried at Broomhill, East Chevington, on June 17."

If the photo posted by Peter Cornwell as part of this thread is the March 29, 1940, crash, where are the additional photos and documentation of the wreckage of that a/c after being salvaged? Surely the wreckage of that one should have received some serious attention by RAF Intel. Are we looking for records and info for the wrong a/c crash?

I'll be most interested to see what Peter C. and Andy S. think about this idea. In the meantime, I'm off to Dallas, TX for the weekend for a big family wedding (my nephew), leaving Peter C. to suck noxious gases from the corpses of dead cats. Yeeha!

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Love the notation "Very Secret" - as opposed to?

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

"Ultra" decoding of German messages, was "Ultra-Secret" ;-)

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Yuck... poor Peter C! :shock:

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

For what it's worth, I've contacted the RAF Museum for more information by e-mail. I should get an answer within 20 days. As I recall, Most Secret was the highest classification on documents other than Ultra.




Ed

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hello,

The EoE team investigation into the alleged photo of one of two Ju88s shot down in to the Firth of Forth on this 16.10.39 mission has now reached an unexpected conclusion. Ed North in his post in this thread suggested that the photo of a Ju88A being lifted by a salvage crane was not one of these aircraft, as has long been published, but, in fact could be 4D+AP which was lost with Oblt. Quadt, StaKap of 6./KG30 in Cresswell Bay, Northumberland, on March 29, 1940. That plane was known to have been salvaged. With help from Andy Saunders and Peter Cornwell, our EoE research team has concluded that Ed North is correct, and that this photo does show the 6 Staffel a/c being unloaded after salvage from Cresswell Bay shortly after the late-March crash, which was fatal to the crew. We don't know if the missing tail of this a/c was ever recovered. Peter has posted this photo above. He email about this photo: "It would be neat to identify the harbor where this salvaged Ju88 was photographed. Looks like a long breakwater in the background – Coquet ?"

I'm planning a color profile of this a/c representing a 6./KG30 Ju88A-1 for the Phoney War volume of the EoE book series. The only important thing lacking now is a W.Nr. for this a/c, which I'm convinced existed in some technical evaluation reports that would have been compiled at the time. Whether these reports still exist is unknown to our team. If anyone has discovered any technical reports on this aircraft, and hopefully any additional photography of it after salvage from the sea, I would very much appreciate hearing about it. We have all three K-Reports on the loss and recovery of this a/c from British Intelligence files, but we have no reports which might have been done as a result of a technical evaluation and study of this aircraft, which I believe was the first Ju88 to crash and be recovered off England, as opposed to the earlier losses on or adjacent to Scottish soil.

Now, back to the original problem, which is to locate and identify sufficient information to create a color profile for at least one of the three Ju88s that crashed while conducting operations near Scapa Flow and the Firth of Forth in mid-October, 1939. We know that the three Ju88s lost on October 16 and 17, 1939 were coded 4D+DH, 4D+AK and 4D+EK, and several prisoners were taken, including members from all three crews. Other than the K-Reports, which we have on all three, is anyone aware of any post war interviews or accounts published from any of the the air crewmen that were taken prisoner from these incidents? I think it very likely that all of the a/c that crashed had the early 4-bladed props. It also appears quite possible that at least the two aircraft that ditched in the Firth of Forth on 16 October were later salvaged from the sea and examined by British intelligence, which might give us W.Nrs. Does anyone have any evidence of that happening? Pohle's interrogation report indicates that he expected that that would happen.


These three losses on those two days, plus another crash-landing at Westerland on the 16th, we have recorded as:

"16. October 1939:

Stab I./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. One engine damaged by AA fire and cockpit hood lost during attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth. Finally engaged by Blue Section of No. 602 Squadron (S/L A. McKellar, F/Lt G. Pinkerton, and F/O P. A. Webb) and ditched in the sea off Crail 2.45 p.m. (Ff) Hptmn Helmut Pohle (Gruppenkommandeur) rescued - badly injured face in landing. (Bs) Gefr August Schleicher rescued badly wounded - later died, (Bf) Uffz Kurt Naake killed, and (Beo) Fw Werner Weise missing. Aircraft 4D+AK 100% loss.

1./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. Shot down by Green Section of No. 603 Squadron (S/L A. D. Farquhar, F/Lt A. V. R. Johnstone, and F/O P. J. Ferguson) and crashed in the sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Siegmund Storp, (Beo) Oberfw Hugo Köhnke and (Bf) Oberfw Hans Hielscher all captured slightly injured, rescued by trawler Dayspring. (Bs) Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% loss.

1./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. Shot down by Spitfires of ‘B’ Flight No.603 Squadron (F/L P. Gifford, F/O K. MacDonald, and F/O C. Robertson) and crashed in sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.55 p.m. Also engaged by elements of Yellow Section of No.602 Squadron. FF Oberlt Siegmund Storp (Staffelkapitän), BO Oberfw Hugo Köhnke, and BF Oberfw Hans-Georg Hielscher all captured slightly injured - rescued by trawler Dayspring, BS Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% write-off.

17 October 1939:

2./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. Suffered direct hit by AA fire during attack on British Fleet in Scapa Flow and exploded in Pegal Burn on the island of Hoy in the Orkney Islands 11.15 a.m. (Ff) Oberlt Walter Flämig, (Beo) Gefr Hans Attenberger, and (Bs) Uffz Rudi Faust killed. (Bf) Uffz Fritz Ambrosius baled out and captured badly wounded and burned. Aircraft 4D+EK 100% write-off.
Remains of this aircraft, the first to crash on mainland Great Britain, and three of its crew were scattered across an area of a quarter mile. They are buried at Lyness as Unknown Airmen."

I have Henry Buckton's book, "Birth of the Few," which recreates the October 16th mission in considerable detail. Can it be relied upon for accuracy? No photos from the German side, however. Pohle and Storp, down on the 16th, provided only general information of their experiences on the mission during their subsequent interrogations. Uffz Ambrosius was the subject of a 19-page intel debriefing report, so his experiences on the 17 October mission are very well covered,

I'd like to do a color profile of Pohle's a/c, and for that I still need a photo of a 2./KG30 Ju88A-1 from the fall of 1939 showing a full a/c code on the fuselage and/or underwing and top wing coding styles. Can anyone point me towards any appropriate photography, preferably showing a plane with 4-bladed prop? I already have the photo of the 2 Staffel Ju88 with the destroyed nose from a ground collision at Westerland on Oct 21st, but this shows only the cockpit area and front of the a/c.

Thanks to all of you for your help so far.

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hi all

Not a theory anymore, I guess. New info on Ju 88 A-1 4D+AP downed 29.03.1940 has come forth.
"It would be neat to identify the harbor where this salvaged Ju88 was photographed. Looks like a long breakwater in the background – Coquet ?"

Royal Aircraft Establishment "Enemy Aircraft Report" EA 10/1 (dated April 1940) confirms Ju 88 A-1 code 4D+AP was landed at Import Dock, Blyth, Northumberland. I do not have have the actual report, only the index from obscure 1969 RAE cataloge. Anyone have copy of this particular RAE EA reports EA 10/1 to EA 10/20?

Since image of Ju 88 picture in question is no longer visible, this is on Flickr "ww2images archive" photostream (open source) http://www.flickr.com/photos/ww2imag...03735/sizes/z/

Similarity to these cranes, the furthest is possible (photo from 1910)
http://www3.northumberland.gov.uk/ca...%208046-08.jpg
or this ones
http://www.flickr.com/photos/5189301.../faves-flyeye/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/5189301.../faves-flyeye/
but breakwater-quay (?) in background matches this photo from Blyth
http://www.flickr.com/photos/blythfo.../faves-flyeye/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/5189301.../faves-flyeye/

Happy new year
Ed

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hi Larry - As Ed North has bought this post back to life I noticed that in your piece of 25 February 2012 you had not incorporated the change of Squadron from 603 to the correct 602 as mentioned in my 12 February posting, hence this is a repeat of my 12th February 2012 post - hope that it is not too late.

You either have a typo, or your information is at fault - S/L Douglas Farquhar, F/Lt A V R "Sandy" Johnstone and F/O F J "Ian" Ferguson were all from Green section of 602 (City of Glasgow) squadron and not 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron AAF, although I agree that the days activities were shared by both Auxiliary squadrons.

Telegram received from A.C.M. Sir Hugh Dowding GCVO, KCB, CMG, ADC AOC-in-C Fighter Command "Well done. First blood to the Auxiliaries" from 602 Squadron ORB - 17 October 1939.

"Sandy" Johnstone states "Farquhar decided to come on the detail this morning and chose to lead my Section (Green) with myself and Ian Ferguson".

Sources: "Lions Rampant - The story of 602 Spitfire Squadron" by Douglas McRoberts and "Spitfire into War" by AVM "Sandy" Johnstone CB DFC AE.

Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the photo though - sorry

cheers

Allan

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Allan,
There were two Ju 88 A-1´s shot down that day (16.10.39) and one more damaged. Are you referring to the correct action, or am I misunderstanding this days combat?
I have 602 SQ (Flt/Lt. G. Pinkerton in “LO*S”) doing 4D+AK but 603 SQ (lead by Flt/Lt. Pat Gifford) doing 4D+DK, Ju 88 A-1 0023 was also damaged this date but returned Sylt, eventually to be repaired in Leipzig.
-Ed

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hi Ed

I am referring to the fact that Larry states that - S/L Douglas Farquhar, F/Lt A V R "Sandy" Johnstone and F/O F J "Ian" Ferguson were all from Green section
of 603 Squadron, when in fact, like Pinkerton, they were all from 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron AAF, in his comment:

"According to our EOE Luft loss/damages DB:"October 16, 1939: 1./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-1. Shot down by Green Section of No. 603 Squadron (S/L A. D. Farquhar, F/Lt A. V. R. Johnstone, and F/O P. J. Ferguson) and crashed in the sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Siegmund Storp, (Beo) Oberfw Hugo Köhnke and (Bf) Oberfw Hans Hielscher all captured slightly injured, rescued by trawler Dayspring. (Bs) Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% loss."

And I have quoted my sources as:

"Sandy" Johnstone states "Farquhar decided to come on the detail this morning and chose to lead my Section (Green) with myself and Ian Ferguson".

Sources: "Lions Rampant - The story of 602 Spitfire Squadron" by Douglas McRoberts and "Spitfire into War" by AVM "Sandy" Johnstone CB DFC AE.

I trust that this clears things up with both you and Larry - whilst I agree that both 602 and 603 Squadrons were involved that day, in the Green Section incident reported by Larry it was definitely 602 Squadron.

Allan

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Many thanks Ed for resolving the location of the harbour where the wreckage of 4D+AP downed on 29 March 1940 was beached. This is much appreciated.

Allan, rest assured that the EOE loss entry is correct & the details as quoted by Larry Hickey were not a true reflection of the current version. Unfortunately, he occasionally refers to and then makes public out-dated information which does little for our collective credibility. I'm beyond worrying about that myself but thank you for your perserverance.

By way of further clarification, Lw losses on the 16 October 1939 attack currently stand thus:

Stab I./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. One engine damaged by AA fire and cockpit hood lost during attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth. Next engaged by Blue Section of No.602 Squadron (S/L A. McKellar, F/Lt G. Pinkerton, and F/O P. C. Webb) and finally ditched in the sea off Crail 2.45 p.m. following further attack by elements of Green Section (S/L A.D. Farquhar and F/O P.J. Ferguson). FF Hptmn Helmut Pohle (Gruppenkommandeur) rescued - badly injured face in landing. BS Gefr August Schleicher rescued badly wounded - later died, BF Uffz Kurt Naake killed, and BO Fw Werner Weise missing. Aircraft 4D+AK 100% write-off.

1./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. Shot down by Spitfires of ‘B’ Flight No.603 Squadron (F/L P. Gifford, F/O K. MacDonald, and F/O C. Robertson) and crashed in sea 4 miles north of Port Seton following attack on HMS Southampton in the Firth of Forth 2.55 p.m. Also engaged by elements of Yellow Section of No.602 Squadron. FF Oberlt Siegmund Storp (Staffelkapitän), BO Oberfw Hugo Köhnke, and BF Oberfw Hans-Georg Hielscher all captured slightly injured - rescued by trawler Dayspring, BS Obergefr Friedrich Krämer missing. Aircraft 4D+DH 100% write-off.

1./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. Crash-landed at Westerland on return starboard engine badly damaged in attacks by F/O C. Robertson and P/O J.S. Morton of No.603 Squadron following attack on British Fleet in the Firth of Forth 2.50 p.m. FF Lt Horst von Riesen and rest of crew unhurt. Aircraft 45% damaged but repairable.

Finally Ed, WNr(0023) is fresh input (to me). So can we be sure of this ?

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hello Peter

Thank you for clarifying the situation with regard to what you actually hold, and intend publishing, about the events of 16 October 1939, concerning both 602 and 603 Squadrons.

However, concerned that you show Archie McKellar as a S/Ldr - he was a serving member of 602 Squadron, not a supernumerary, so highly unlikely that he would also be the same rank as the actual Squadron OC at the time S/Ldr A D Farquhar, more likely a F/Lt., so what is your definitive source that states he was an S/Ldr in 602 at this time please?

Keep up the good, and lengthy, work - I look forward to its publication.

Allan

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

You can be sure of it. Enclosed is a photo of the Ju 88 0023 after the attack on Firth of Forth taken at the Junkers repair facility at Leipzig October 1939.

A question:
Does anyone have information on the fate of Hauptmann Pohle (postwar)?

Regards
Peter

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

I'm sure I corresponded with Pohle. I'll check.

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hello Peter

Further to my piece above concerning the rank of Archie McKellar on 16 October 1939 - according to my own research he was a Flying Officer at that time, attaining that rank on 8 May 1938, having been commissioned as a Pilot Officer on 8 November 1936, so even I was incorrect in guessing that he was a Flight Lieutenant.

90168 Archibald Ashmore McKellar was promoted from F/O to Flt/Lt on 1 June 1940 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/34876/pages/3711 - he was transferred to 605 Squadron shortly afterwards, and was subsequently awarded the DFC in September 1940 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/34945/pages/5487 as a Flight Lieutenant, along with a bar to the DFC in the Gazette of 8 October 1940, also as a Flt Lt, and the DSO as a S/Ldr on 26 November 1940, all for 605 Squadron.

I trust that you will now alter your record accordingly - after your own confirmation of my evidence of course.

Allan

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Allan,

Your input needs no confirmation by me. Loss list will be amended so.

Peter,

Many thanks for the image. Likewise with thanks for your interest.

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hello,

My apologies to Peter for all the frustration of seeing less than the most current updates to some of our loss entries. This entry was resurrected from some time ago, and probably didn't reflect what I carry now.

For those who don't know our process, we've added or updated thousands of entries to our loss DB due to detailed further research with FB, KTBs, Accident Listings, Photos and their captions, personal diaries, and many other sorts of official and unofficial records. This process is on-going every day. I've never counted the number of losses we now carry for all sides from 01.09.39 through 31.12.40, but it is probably approaching 10,000 individual entries, and includes entries for damage and casualties, often too minor to have been covered in the Luftwaffe QM reports. This allows us to tie into many reports of air (and AA from the ground) reports that otherwise don't provide any tie in with results to the other side.

Before we publish anything, we will carefully compare notes between the files of both Peter and I to make sure that we are working from the most up to date file entries.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator


The way that we've decided

Re: Seeking photos of Ju88A-1 shot down in the Firth of Forth on 16.10.39
 

Hello,

Regarding the damage to the 1.KG30 Ju88A-1 WNr. 0023 on 16 Oct 1939, a photo of this without the circles to the damage can be found in: ""Junkers Ju 88 in Action" P36 SQ-SIG Aircraft #16 P36 by Ewe Feist.

Does anyone know the full code to this a/c? 4D+_H?

Regards,

EoE Project Coordinator