Col-Tomb toon
 

hello'
Can anyone tell me if a Col tomb was found 10/5/72 flying a mig 17
did he exist? ........
sharon

Re: \\\\\Col-Tomb toon
 

No, Col tomb toon did not exist

Re: \\\\\Col-Tomb toon
 

This myth could be originated from a picture showed a Mig painted with more than a dozen red stars, some Americans guessed that belonged to a super aces in the North Vietnam air force, not knowing that usually more than one North Vietnam pilots would fly same Mig and if any of them scored a victory on that Mig, he would paint a red star on the same Mig. Then from radio interception, one of the North Vietnamese call sigh sounded like "Toon" to Americans, so one plus one, there was a super North Vietnam ace name col Toon! According to Vietnamese record, there was no Col Toon in their air force, and the score of their top ace in the Vietnam war were 9 kills

Re: \\\\\Col-Tomb toon
 

Thanks -who was killed by Randy cunningham on 10/5/72
any names.i found none so I guess it was him..but who?
sharon

Re: Col-Tomb toon
 

Nguyen Van Coc from the 921th FR had 9 kills (7) 2 F-4Ds, 1 F-4B, 2 F-105F, 1 F-105D and 1 F-102A. But that was with MiG-21PF.

There are some three MiG-17 aces, but as write before, "Colonel Toon" is a fiction. This day Cunningham and Driscoll had encountered another skilled and anonymus MiG-17 pilot.
A version say this pilot was most likely a flight leader or squadron commander of the 923th Regiment.

Re: Col-Tomb toon
 

As Vietnamese sources have not identified this pilot (where they have identified many other fighter pilots) it has been suggested that he was non-Vietnamese and that the Toon/Tomb callsign was associated with foreigners.

While it has been suggested that this dogfight never took place (which is why the Vietnamese have never written about it), but Driscoll's reputation for veracity remains high. With Cunningham getting out of federal prison, he may have more time to go over the events of 10 May 1972.

Re: Col-Tomb toon
 

Sometimes I wonder if Cunningham really make ace or not. I think not.

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Col-Tomb toon
 

According to István Toperczer, Cunningham used two missiles to shoot down a pilot named Do Hang, who ejected from his MiG-17 but was killed by 20 mm cannon fire from either Cunningham or his wingman.

Cunningham/Driscoll themselves were shot down some 20-30 minutes later by Vu Duc Hop (13.04H)

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Col-Tomb toon
 

Interesting. To recap the official information from publications using USN data:
- Cunningham's air wing was on an Alpha Strike that morning, so bombs and drop tanks and usual Sidewinder/Sparrow mix. No 20mm cannon pods, which were generally not used by the USN carrier-based F-4Bs, though a more frequent load on USAF and USMC land-based Phantoms.
- Cunningham's F-4B "officially" shot down by SAM en-route to coast after bombing and 3-victories on that day.
- Unlikely that Do Hang killed by 20mm cannon fire from Cunningham (no cannon carried) and wingman was not present during the combat for 3rd (Toom or Do Hang) combat. Accidental fire from other MiG-17s (23mm cannon) or A-7s (20mm cannon) can't be discounted. USN A-7 Corsairs were part of the strike package.
- Cunningham was shot down by a missile strike - thought by the US Navy to be a SA-2 SAM. Though a missile from a MiG can't be discounted, just not noticed by US sources.


...geoff

Re: Col-Tomb toon
 

Geoff

Presumably Toperczer is quoting some official/semi-official Vietnamese source in this case.
I have no idea how crowded the sky actually was at each given time over NV, but being killed by friendly fire would not be the first time in history. Good point.

If anything goes like a red thread reading about US losses in the air, anywhere, at least since WW 2 is that if there is a fraction of chance to claim either AA-fire or (later) GAM missiles "did it", they do so.

Both Korea and Vietnam are prime examples of how the "chance/coincidence factor" had to be highlighted at all times, while any kind of planned skill from an enemy is downplayed to the maximum. For a top notch pilot, being at the wrong place at exactly the wrong moment (AA-fire/GAM strike) is acceptable, but being shot down in air combat is for some reason not.
The official US view seems to be "we-never-make-any-mistakes-like-that" rather than face different facts.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Col-Tomb toon
 

Stig,
Some background scene setting in response to your question of how crowded the skies over Vietnam may have gotten.

10 May 1972 was an exceptionally busy day, try the book by Jeff Ethell & Alfred Price "One Day in a Long War". The USN and USAF in loosely co-ordinated attacks, set out to locally overwhelm the NVAF defences by hitting separate targets with large numbers of assets spread out over the country. The attacks were part of a range of strikes carried out over a number of days. A large number of MiG kills were claimed during that period of time. The following claims are set out in Lou Drendel's "...And Kill MiGs" bookazine.
- 6 MAY 1972 USN[4]
- 8 May 1972 USAF[2] USN[1]
-10 May 1972 USAF[3] USN[8]
-11 May 1972 USAF[1]
-12 May 1972 USAF[1]
- additional attacks occurred the following week.

On 10 May, Cunningham was part of an Alpha Strike. A carrier Alpha Strike is where every aircraft that can be integrated into a single raid is sent off against a single target - in this case the Haiphong Rail Yards. In the same piece of sky would have been MiGCAP (F-4s) missle-armed and prowling the edges to kill MiGs; strike force (A-6s, F-4s and A-7s) bomb-ladened; Iron-Hand AAA-supression (Cunningham's flight, drop-tanks on centre and outer pylons, Sparrows semi-recessed on fuselage; Sidewinders on inner pylons; Rock-eye Cluster bombs on inner pylon under Sidewinders); probably F-4s as escorts and possibly A-7s carrying Shrike or Standard anti-radar missiles. Cunningham's own recollection included missile attacks by NVAF MiG-21s and gun attacks by MiG-17s. (USAF pilot recollections elsewhere on 10 May, note mainly MiG-21 missile-run sorties, together with a few MiG-19 close-in gun attacks.) So yes, a very crowded sky with the NVAF sending up most of it's assets to intercept the numerous USN/USAF raids..

In Drendel's book, Cunningham notes the attack commencing with the A-6s and two groups of A-7s. In a previous engagement, Cunningham noted the aggressiveness of some of the A-7 pilots who tried to mix it with MiG-17s. It would be probably that on 10 May, some of the Corsair pilots were involved in the dogfight. So USN 20mm cannon shells would have been sprayed around at some stage.


...geoff

Re: Col-Tomb toon
 

Hello. According to Vietnamese source Lịch sử dẫn đường Không quân (1959-2004) 10 May 1972 shot down by F-4s:
8:52 MiG-21 Nguyễn Văn Ngãi KIA
9:39(take off)+ MiG-21 Cao Sơn Khảo KIA (+ damaged MiG-21 Nguyễn Công Huy according Toperczer)
9:58(take off)+ MiG-19 Lê Đức Oánh ejected, died in hospital
9:58(take off)+ MiG-19 Phạm Hồng Sơn OK – out of fuel, crash landing
10:45 MiG-19 Lê Văn Tưởng died – out of fuel, crash landing
12:55(take off)+ 3 MiG-17: Đỗ Hang ejected, killed by F-4`s 20-mm fire, Trà Văn Kiếm KIA, Nguyễn Văn Thọ ejected OK.

Vietname air-to-air kills, all F-4:
8:57 MiG-21 Đặng Ngọc Ngư
9:39(take off)+ MiG-21 Cao Sơn Khảo
9:58 MiG-19 Nguyễn Văn Phúc
9:58+ MiG-19 Lê Văn Tưởng
13:04 MiG-21 Vũ Đức Hợp
13:05 MiG-21 Lê Thanh Đạo.