Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Hello,

It has always seemed strange to me that no photos have ever surfaced (that I know of) of the 8./JG52 Bf109E 6+~, flown by Uffz Max Reiss, down near Deal, Kent on 25.7.40. It apparently came down in good condition in an accessible area, and the report about it even says that it was "repairable." This early, a Bf109 in good condition would have been subject to a lot of attention, at least for local display purposes. Does anyone know anything about any photos that might have been taken of this a/c? If photos can be located, this one would make a good subject for a color profile for the EoE Project.

Hope someone can help.

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Hello,

Made a mistake when I posted that in the middle of last night, Max Reiss was shot down on July 25, 1940, NOT August 25, 1940. I've edited that in my post, but wanted to call attention to this change for those of you that may have already looked at the post. That early date is why I think that photos must exist of this a/c.

Who can help?

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Larry

Was going to say that August was not that early when I read it earlier!

Mark

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Hello Larry,

Allow me to preface this by saying I've been involved with book production for over a few decades and I fully understand the pressure and time constraints, especially when it comes to assigning artwork.

If you look here:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?filter[makerString][0]=%22Press%20Agency%20photographer%22&filter[termString][0]=%22aviation%22&query=

scroll down to the two boxes without images. I think the Imperial War Museum could be of help.


Best,
Ed

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Well, that didn't work. You'll need to use their search box. A few suggestions:

Type in: 1940 "german aircraft" shot down me 109

For a more general search, which might reveal more aircraft photos related to your needs, type in: 1940 "german aircraft" shot down




Ed

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

I did a bit more nosing around using the search terms I described above and found this entry:

"Soldiers guarding a wrecked Messerschmitt Me 109 intercepted by a Spitfire over the English Channel and shot down. The pilot glided in over the beach and put down on the marshes with his engine dead and sixteen holes in the fuselage and engine cowling. The guns of the Messerscmitt had not been fired, so quickly was he shot down."


The catalogue number for the image is HU 88416.






Ed

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Ed,

I was able to find the photo referenced above, but couldn't figure out how to view the image. How do I do this?

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

There appears to be quite a few wrecked/crashed German aircraft images available but without preview images on the actual IWM website. I can only assume that they have not gotten round to scanning and uploading these particular images from the archives. Which is a shame because I want to see them as well. :)

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Larry,


I think contacting the Imperial War Museum either yourself or through one of your British contacts is your best bet. I would also inquire if the photo has an information summary as you know many press/official photos carried them during the war for publication purposes. You'll note that descriptions of incidents from the period involving British aircraft show the actual photo. I suspect the actual photo for German aircraft is not shown so that those who know how cannot lift the image without paying for it.

And I also found this interesting, and slightly more informative, entry:

"A pair of scissors - the emblem painted on the fuselage of a yellow-nosed Messerschmitt Me 109 shot down in a field near a town on the south coast."



Catalogue number HU 88396


This would never do if I was trying to sell a photo like this on eBay :)



Ed

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Ed,

1) The scissor a/c is Bf109E-1 Y12+ of 3./JG27, a very well-known force-landing on 30 August 1940. The late Michael W. Payne located many photos of this incident, and its subsequent salvage and public display. He may have donated copies of these, which we have in the EoE Collection, to the IWM. Or these may have been press photos of that a/c taken at the time, which we almost surely have.

2) The EoE Photo DB collection contains somewhere around a thousand images of German a/c down in Britain during 1940, and there are few photos known to exist that are not in our collection. Moreover, from German sources, we often have photos of the German planes, known to have crashed, prior to their loss on operations over Britain. These came from the personal collections of several of the best known researchers in the field, some of whom have spent fifty or more years acquiring and assembling this material. However, from time to time photos previously unknown to us have surfaced, almost always from private collections, and these are what we're mainly looking for.

The a/c of Uffz Max Reiss is one of the notable ones absent from our collection, but there are others, for which I'm working up a post to ask about. The Isle of Wight is a particular problem with several Luftwaffe a/c force-landed there for which no photos are known to exist. So, if anyone has or knows of any photos of German a/c down on the I.O.W. during 1940, even smashed wrecks, please contact me. Copies of press photos from events there are unlikely to be in the I.W.M. Collection, but I'm always prepared to be pleasantly surprised. I believe that what the IWM has partially posted on line (so far without images) is the same collection I looked at 44 years ago when I first visited Britain to do research.

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Larry,


Regarding the Isle of Wight, the last two sentences of this excerpt may be be useful:

"During the course of the battle a Hurricane flown by Pilot Officer Parrott of 145 squadron attacked a Ju 87 of 4 Staffel, Stukageschwader 77, and damaged it so severely that it just managed to reach the Island and crash land at the top of St Lawrence Shute. Of the two man crew, the pilot was badly wounded and died shortly after the aircraft came down but the gunner survived and was taken prisoner. The dive bomber became the first German aircraft to be shot down on the Isle of Wight and was featured at great length in the local press. There is an excellent picture picture of this Stuka in Adrian Searle's book The Isle of Wight at War 1939 - 1945."



Ed

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

A possible avenue of investigation Larry? The Isle of Wight Local Newspaper Archives

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Ed,

Thanks for your continuing efforts to help us solve these mysteries. The Ju87B, S2+LM Uffz Fritz Pittroff POW, down 8.8.40, actually is a well-known crash for which I have several photos in the DB. I also have a distance shot of this a/c in flight before it was shot down. This will almost certainly be one of our color profile a/c. IIRC, this is the only relatively intact Luft a/c down on the I.O.W. for which good photos exist.

Besides the Hansen crash, another Bf109 that came down on the IOW during the BoB for which no photos exist that I know of at the crash site was Y6+- of 6./JG27, Oblt. Julius Neumann POW 8.18.40 in W.Nr. 1455. This is a strong candidate for a color profile if I can locate photos for the artist to work from.

The A.1.G Report on his crash says:
"2. Me. 109d. Crashed near Ventner, I.O.W. on 18.8.40. Landed on fire following fighter action. Engine, cockpit and starboard wing burnt out. Markings 6+ -- (horizontal line); (6 and horizontal line yellow, outlined in black.) Werknummer 1455 above that 1111, all on fin..."

I interpret the "1111" as 4 victory tabs placed directly above the W.Nr. There is a well-known double exposure image of what could be this a/c with Neumann and another pilot, showing 3 victory tabs in black on the fin in the location described, but no W.Nr. is visible, so this is probably not Yellow 6. Neumann only had two reported victories as of the time of his capture, so he may well not have been flying his normal a/c on the day he was shot down. He is known to have flown Y3+- during the WC (FC), but this 109 was probably out of action due to a crack up. Whose a/c he could have been flying is a bit problematic, as 6./JG27 was not a high scoring unit in 1940, and only one pilot is known to have had as many as three victories recorded by 18.8.40, and this was Fw. Hans Witzel. This could be the person in the photo described above. Surviving German records record no 6 Staffel pilot with 4 victories as of that date.

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Clint,

Excellent idea. I don't have the time to go through these right now, but if anyone would take the time and report the results, this would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

To all,


An excerpt from an interview with Julius Neumann that may be of interest to others joining the hunt:

"Talks a lot about his forced landing on the Isle of Wight.
That day he flew Nr 6 because his normal plane had 2 hits 3 days before.
An artist from the island has painted the landing of the 109. He knew exactly where Mr Neumann came down on the 18th August 1940.


"What time of the day did you come down?
13:25 exactly ( that was his answer)
The logbook 14:45 and the start was 11:45.
James, you took some copies of the flight book. (I don’t know, if the times are correct.)


"What happened to the wreck?
I saw it burning when I was taken away.
2 home guards came up to me – elderly men and asked me, if I had any souvenirs.
I didn’t come here to bring those."






Ed

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Larry, will all of these photos be published in the EOE volumes?

Thanks

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Clint,

I'm planning to publish in very rough numbers about 10-15,000 photos in the EoE book series, including most of our useful Luftwaffe collection. At present, we have over 36,000 in our photo DB, and many thousands of more awaiting processing into the DB. In some squadrons we have photos of 50% or more off the planes that flew in the unit during the 1939-40 time period.

Regards,

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Thanks for the info, looking forward to seeing the books.

Re: Seeking photos of FL Bf109E of Uffz Max Reiss (8./JG52) down intact near Deal, Kent, on 25.7.40
 

Larry,


From a practical, economical and research related perspective, the number of photos you have from the period staggers me. And speaking from a profit making perspective about unpublished images for which no room may be found, nothing makes me want to buy a Luftwaffe publication quicker than the words "unpublished photos." Perhaps in order to further fund additional planned volumes, those other, properly documented photos could be published in a Luftwaffe im Focus or Wings of the Black Cross format in between these volumes. I suggest Jerry Crandall at Eagle Editions as a possible collaborator in this idea. That is, if either of you are interested of course.


Regards,
Ed