Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Hi, I did this interview with SAAF No. 5 sqdn fifgter pilot veteran Cecil Golding and he has an interesting view on Hans-Joachim Marseille's victory claims of 3 June 1942.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVTw-WuVes

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Thanks for posting this! Also,yes, double or more claiming on the same aircraft does happen.

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Hello'
I think Marseille when he said he lost No aircraft ,his Flight of me 109s not lost.
sharon

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

10 clams vs 5 actual losses? That was not bad at all, after reading so many books about the WWII air combat in all theatres, I found normal overclaims for every single airforces of WWII were about 3 or 4 to 1, so JG 27's overclaims in that air combat is well in the reasonable range.

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

I think the main aspect of Mr. Golding's concern is that it is said in history books that SAAF 5 sqdn on that day moved into a defensive circle. According to Cecil, their No 5 SAAF squadron never flew the defensive circle. He acknowledges the over claim aspect to be an unintentional std practise on both sides.

Their squadron lost more than 30 pilots and 3 OC's in 3 months, nearly 3 times an operational squadron strength. The Tomahawks were at very bad odds with the 109's

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

( circles) Wagon wheels-cowboys did?

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

From the interview I understood Mr. Golding to say that Marseille claimed 6 victories but his "Press agent" stated 10. There were 5 actual losses. Were there any forced landings that were recovered and thus not included as losses. I can see a pilot shooting down an aircraft and honestly claiming a victory but then later on its recovered and repaired. So in the unit records its showing up as only no loss or only a few losses.

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Nokose

In Shores 'Fighter's over the Desert' he states the following;

"At 1215 hours eleven Tomahawks of 5 SAAF Squadron were ordered off on a sweep, but Lt. Hirst and Lt. P.C.Groble collided head–on while taxiing, both aircraft being damaged and Groble hurt. Nine aircraft got off, meeting Ju87s of I./StG3 near Bir Hacheim; the squadron was flying in line astern, and turned somewhat shakily to the attack, but hitting the Stukas squarely. Capt Botha claimed three and shared a fourth with Wg.Cdr. Beresford,, who shot down one himself. Maj. Frost, Lt. Gaymans, Lt. Muir and 2/Lt. Golding each claimed one, Goldign sharing a second with Capt. Morrison. Two Stuka pilots and a gunner were killed, and one of weach captured. Six Bf109s of I./JG27 were flying escort, and one of these flown by Oblt. Marseille, attacked the Tomahawks with great effect. Despite the fact that his cannon jammed after only ten shots, leaving him only his two machine-guns, Marseille’s masterly shooting abilility enabled him to claim no less than six of the South African fighters at 1352, 25, 27, 28, 29 and 1333 hours, landing himself at 1352 hours, Capt Pare went down in flames, being reported to have first shot down a Bf109, 2/Lt. Martin crashed slightly wounded, at Bir Hacheim, being reported safe with the Free French. Capt. Morrison, Lt. Muir and 2/Lt. Golding failed to return, all being reported in Tobruk hospital with injuies on the 5th. Capt. Botha suffered damage to his aircraft, but made it back to base, where he force landed. He was recommended for an immediate DFC for his part in this combat.

It seems that there were other British fighters accompanying the South Africans, as Marsielles reported initially meeting twelve to fourteen aircraft, and six Bf109s of II./JG53 also on the escort mission, attacked six fighters, claiming three. British records show that a Hurricane failed to return and another crash-landed in British lines, but the squadron is not known.

Four Bf109s of II./JG27 on a ‘Freie Jagd’ in the area a few minutes later encountered a Kittyhawk, which Uffz. Geirster shot down at 1335 hours , causing it to crash-land, and this loss to is confirmed by British records, though again the squadron is unknown. "

The 10 claims were.

03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 70 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 3 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.22 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 423B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 71 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 5 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.25 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 424B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 72 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 5 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.27 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 425B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 73 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 7 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.28 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 426B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 74 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 10 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.29 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 427B
03.06.42 Oblt. Hans-Joachim Marseille: 75 3./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 7 km. westl. Bir Hacheim 12.33 Film C. 2036/II Nr. 100041/43 – 428B
03.06.42 Ltn. Ernst Klager: 17 7./JG 53 Curtiss P-40 £ - 12.20 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 – 688B
03.06.42 Hptm. Helmut Belser: 30 8./JG 53 Curtiss P-40 £ - 12.25 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 – 689B
03.06.42 Hptm. Helmut Belser: 31 8./JG 53 Curtiss P-40 £ - 12.28 Reference: JG 53 Lists f. 1676 – 690B
03.06.42 Uffz. Helmut Gierster: 3 5./JG 27 Curtiss P-40 £ 10 km. östl. Bir Hacheim 12.23 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr. 73 – 312B


The 6 for Marsielles were
Tomahawk IIB (AK384) 5 SAAF SQN Capt. Robin Pare – OK shot down in flames by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (?????) 5 SAAF SQN 2/Lt. Martin – slightly WIA crashed after shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (AK421) 5 SAAF SQN Capt. Morrison – FTR WIA shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (AM401) 5 SAAF SQN Lt. Muir – FTR WIA shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (AN262) 5 SAAF SQN 2/Lt. Douglas Golding – FTR WIA shot down by Bf109 – sweep 3rd June 1942
Tomahawk IIB (?????) 5 SAAF SQN Capt. Adrian .J. Botha – OK ac damaged by Bf109 forcelanded back at base – sweep 3rd June 1942

The 3 for III./JG53 are suggested to be an unidentified Hurricane unit. I have not been able to find this unit but maybe someone else has the information?

The final claim for 5/JG27, I believe is the following aircraft from 112 Squadron which was damaged and recovered.
3/6/42 Kittyhawk Mk. I (AL121) Sgt Clark A/C Damaged Cat 2 in combat.

Keeping in mind that this book was written in 1969, someone may have the information to confirm the missing British losses.

The tally was 6 fighters lost 3 forcelanded for 10 claims which in my opinion is not too bad.

The biggest query is the unidentified British squadrons that suffered losses. I'm told that Fighters over the Desert is being re-written with a lot of new information, maybe this will all be ansered then.

Regards,

Craig..

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Thanks Kapper for this great reply!

It is so interesting but sad that Robin Pare was one of Cecil's great buddies and he was killed on that day.

In the interview Cecil admits the fact of optimistic claims on both sides but he read the book on Marseille written by Franz Kurowski and in this book it is said that Cecil's squadron formed a Lufbery defensive circle and then Marseille just potted the South Africans one by one out of the sky. Cecil said that their squadron never did this circle formation and especially not on that day.

Please note there is a mistake in your information: The "Douglas Golding" was a SAAF 4 sqdn pilot and not 5 sqdn. It should be " Cecil Alexander Golding"

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Well, I would be hesitant to use Franz Kurowski's book as a reference.

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

If the force-landing was at its home base (or other friendly) it would be recorded as such, as shown above, but not as being shot-down in combat. A force-landing in the desert away from the base would be recorded as a loss to the unit: if the aircraft was later recovered (and repairable) it would be taken away to the repair MU and may or may not go back to the same unit later - probably not.

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

The Russians sent repair crews to the scene of force landings and either recovered the aircraft or fixed it well enough to fly back to it's unit. I remember reading of one Soviet ace who looked at a captured German pilot's log book and stated that there was no loss of Soviet aircraft on some of the days in question but then on being asked about forced landings from dogfights he admitted that it was possible that could be what happen. In the case of Marsielle his score might not be in the 150 mark but is probably well over the 100 mark. As far as Kurowski's books, I think he gets his information from war era articles like "Signal" and other published articles of the time (Just to many personal type qoutes that sound more like morale boosters).

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

? didn't they have Gun Cameras fitted by the Me 109 F2-4/s.
Sharon

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Luftwaffe used very few gun cams -mainly for training purposes.

Gun cam footage is not always conclusive anyhow.

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Hello everybody!

Most interesting topic.

Captain Botha can't be confirmed as being shot down by Marseille since he reported in his combat report that his aircraft overheated after using up all ammunition on the Ju 87s (he did in fact report being attacked by a Bf109). He landed and waited for the engine to cool down before taking off again for his base.

Is there anyone with actual German combat reports from this combat?

5 SAAF Sq. also reported Italian MC.202s in this combat but as far as I can find there is no corresponding Italian claims for this combat.

Best wishes/Håkan

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

you know thats greatest thing I ever heard -YES they did that in WW1?
i heard too. _GOOD ONE)
marseille was one for shooting then not lookin and shooting at the next one.
so yes it could happen.

sharon

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Hello again,

While looking more into the combat reprots and ORB for this combat I can't find any evidence of the ground collision that Shores writes about in "Fighters over the desert". Is there anyone with more info in this?

However, Lt. v. d. Spuy who took part in the sweep "Moscowed" and returned early at 12:45. what is "Moscowed"?

Lt. Muir mentioned by Shores "Moscowed in an earlier sweep on the day taking off at 07:00 and returning 07:15.

Best wishes/Håkan

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Hi Gents

I thought I might weigh in here with further information. On the 3 Jun 1943, the following aircraft werre lost or damaged by 5SAAF, which resulted in the aircraft being written off.

AN431 S - Lt P.C.F.Grobler - this aircraft collided with AK366 at LG143
AM401 I - 2/Lt. Martin
AK384 V - Capt. Robin Pare
AK366 O - Lt R.C Hirst - This aircraft collided with AN431 at LG143
AN262 C - Lt. Muir
AK421 Z - Capt. Morrison
AN468 J - 2Lt C.A.Golding

Capt Botha's aircraft is unknown, but was recovered and repaired.

Other losses or damaged on that day 4SAAF 2 damaged CAT2 cause unknown, 450SQN 1 CAT 2 due to AA, 112SQN 1 CAT 2 to fighters.

Buz

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Hi Håkan!

"Moscowed" is the RT code to tell you return to base immediately. They used this terminology in the SAAF sqdns, not sure if it was used by all Commonwealth Air Forces.

Ground collision between two Tomahawks happened on 3 June1942 with SAAF 5 sqdn round about 12:15 as a taxi accident while the squadron got ready for the take off to intercept the stukas heading for Bir Hacheim. The 2 AC's involved are Lt Robin Hirst GL-O AK366 and Lt Grobler GL-S AN431

regards
Tinus le Roux

Re: Marseille's victory claim disputed
 

Hello Tinus and Buz,

Thanks for the addiitonal info!

Best wishes/Håkan