a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

Does anyone have details of a Lockheed (Hudson?) shot down - or at least engaged by - Bf 110s (presumably ZG76) off the north eastern coast of England on 5 November 1940? The RAF aircraft were attempting to engage He 115s of 2./506 who were operating in grid Q6843.

Not much to go on, I know, sorry. Any details would be appreciated.

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

Hello,
A 77 Sqdn Whitley went into the sea.
Alex

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

Hi Alex,

Do you havew details of the location and crew? Thanks for the pointer.

Adam

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

This was Hudson A/220 Sqn which reported a combat with 2 He 115s & 2 Bf 110s north of the Frisians at 1303 hrs claiming one of the latter destroyed which matches with the loss of Fw Artur Hering of 4/ZG 76

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

Hello Adam,
Whitley T4151 "KN-N", ditched 8 miles East of North Shields, Northumberland. Crew were rescued by local steam ship.
Another from 10 Sqdn P5001 "ZA-S" was never found last plotted 10 miles East of North Foreland.
220 Sqdn squadron codes were "NR".
refs: BCL 1939-1940 by W R Chorley.
Alex

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

It is my opinion that the 220 Sqn combat was the one you are after not the 77 Sqn ditching

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

T4151:
"On 5th November 1940 flying a 77 Squadron Whitley T4151, P/O Miller, along with four other airmen, two of these were Sgt Gilbert and Sgt Thorpe who were on the Whitley which crashed on Arden Great Moor (detailed at the top of this page). On this flight in November 1940 they were undertaking a raid on Milan with other aircraft but after flying in electrical storms outbound this was the only aircraft to bomb Milan. The wireless became unservicable, strong winds and snow and ice over the Alps effected flying. After being in the air for over 11 hours (or 13 hours, the time varies from source to source) the aircraft was ditched in the North Sea off South Shields when they became lost and probably ran low on fuel. They were rescued from their dinghy by a passing steamer and taken ashore. "

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

thanks for the information. however, it appears according to the 506 KTB that the English pilot/crew engaged - or at least attempted to - a seaplane (He 115) and then was shot down. The 506 KTB indicates that the [Lockheed] engaged the seaplanes but was in turn engaged by the 110 escort which shot the RAF plane down. Oblt München (the Beo. on hand) of 506 stated a search resulted but nothing came of it. My German is poor to say the least but it doesn't appear that it was a tit-for-tat affair.

A ditch doesn't sound like a "crash" while none of the reports suggest a combat that resulted in a German loss....Chris, 220 seems like a proper bet, but I don't like the loose ends.

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

Further confirmation, to rule out Miller's Whitley, is that Whitley T4151 "F/L in sea beside Trawler" ... "8m east North Shields in North Sea" on 6th November 1940. AM1180

Although the wireless was described as "U/S" [possibly for navigating by], an SOS Action was raised at 0607 6/11, for this Whitley with 5 on board reported at 0507 hrs GMT. "From Sealand" and noted "12m E North Foreland"

See also - following post by Ross (regarding above SOS Action)

Whitley P5001
Regarding the 10 Squadron Whitley V P5001 the AM 78 does confirm Whitley P5001 as "5.11.40 FB.O.(3) In Sea". The P5001 aircraft had only completed 214 flying hours in total and was formally written off 1.12.40, with a reference to "Nov 40".

Unfortunately, I have no other official document copies on this Whitley and no 5th November "In Sea" position. Chorley indicates the bomber was plotted 10 miles E of North Foreland.

Mark

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

P5001
"PTB234, Route: Base - Bassingbourn - Orford Ness - French Coast - Target - French Coast - Orford Ness - Bassingbourn
This aircraft reported operation completed at 23:59 on 05/11/40. The aircraft failed to return, but Sealand reported than an SOS had been received from PTB 234, fix 10 miles E of North Foreland at 06:10 06/11/40.
Appendix C 165 A & B"
AIR27/141

T4151
"MYD 431
'M'
Ditched 08:00.
P/O Miller reached the target which he bombed from 10,000 ft, but did not observe any results accurately.
He encountered heavy and accurate AA fire over Dunkirk but very little over Italy.
His wireless was put out of action, by electrical storms on the outward journey, and he landed finally in the sea, off the East coast, and he and his crew were picked up by a steamer, and brought ashore.
The reason he landed in the sea was because he had lost direction on the return flight, and ran short of petrol."
AIR27/655

Regards
Ross

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

Ross,
Many, many thanks for your reply. Your reply is most interesting as Form MLS/H. S.O.S. Action., raised by the Movement Liaison Section (MLS) at Fighter Command connects "(Whitley PTB 234)" ... "Whitley- 7FZ-S" raised by them at 0607 6/11, to the Miller, Gilbert, Thorpe, crew of 5.

The first searching Lysander reported nothing at 0925 and 11 Group will send another Lysander at 0955 to continue the search, 11 Group were sending a launch and it states the "CCLO has a/c near which will look out."

According to your reply and your ORB research, I have the SOS Action Form for P5001 it seems? The reference to the Miller crew on the S.O.S. Action Form must have been added (in different hand near the bottom), linking the original S.O.S. Action Form, incorrectly to Miller and crew being picked up. The AM1180 for Miller gave 0800 as you also stated in your Post.

Did the ORB state the reason for the Whitley P5001 SOS?

Additional Notes about SOS and Distress Broadcasts (aircraft and Ships)
Because a family member was in an SOS incident 11 minutes before they were killed, visits over the years to the PRO, Kew (TNA) has resulted in virtually the whole 1940 Air Ministry file being copied. It would appear (although strenuously denied by PRO / TNA) that the MLS/H SOS Action Forms are missing prior to November 1940 and they have only been able to supply copy General Post Office (GPO) Monthly Distress Returns, received by aircraft in Distress around our coasts.

BT Archives have a list of every SOS received (1939 to 1945) each with a sequential GPO serial number and date, with the GPO Station dealing and whether aircraft or Ship is sending, (in the case of a Ship, a ship's name is recorded), some name aircraft type, being received by their predecessor GPO Coast W/T Stations throughout WW 2.

Unfortunately, in the 1980s the GPO/BT Archivist asked the PRO for permission to destroy the 16 Casualty Files which accompanied the Distress Broadcast Lists (I expect time and other details were in these files), so it would appear researchers now only have the lists unfortunately. It was always my understanding that they were classed as 'legal transmissions' and that details had to be kept?

I noted in files at TNA, Kew that the Signal of Distress was also given when our aircraft were being fired upon by our own defences, as well as aircraft fire, airframe, engine failure, damage, weather and request for assistance when in grave danger.

The Form is large (on 2 pdf pages).

Regards
Mark

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

Hi Mark,

AIR 27/147 are the Appendices referenced for P5001.

The Op was orginally schedued for 2/11/40 with take off at 14:00 hrs

PTB 234 P/O Jones P5001 "S"

It has the pencil notation - Postponed. Carried out 5/11/40. Forcelanded in the sea after completing mission.

The next page confirms MSI and crew and adds Time Up at 14:03 from Leeming.

The five man crew that Chorley gives is the same crew listed for B flight roster on 29th Oct (3 alternative crewmembers are listed in the roster to cover illness etc)

So lots in the No.10 ORBs and appendices to confirm PTB234 as P5001.

No.77 Sqn Appendices AIR27/659A confirms Miller crew as MSI MYD431.

On balance it looks like your reference attaching Miller crew to MSI PTB234 is incorrect and it should be Jones crew. This is also confirmed by the suggestion that only Jones crew had a functioning w/t and hence the only crew of the two able to send an SOS at 06:10 hrs.

Regards
Ross

Re: a/c id'd as 'Lockheed' lost 5.11.1940
 

Hi Ross

This SOS Action Form, raised in the MLS (Movement Liaison Section) started a search for the P5001 Whitley crew.

The discovery of Miller and his crew have been entered on this particular SOS Action form incorrectly, due to an administrative error. The Form is an exact copy of the original in the Air Ministry file, I watched it being copied!

Although the MLS has completed the 'Results' incorrectly, comparing this Form with the others, I have noticed that the SOS Action was not cancelled by the Group, which has been left blank.

Thanks
Mark