Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Morning fellow enthusiasts, I have five Jg77 pilots who seem to dis-appear from the scene rather abruptly. My JG77 losses are incomplete for 1943, so I suspect some might have come to grief, all are non-officers which makes the job of trying to find out what happened to them even harder:-

Ludwig Rössner, he made all his claims as a Unteroffizier with 5./JG77, I know absolutely nothing about him except his claims.

20th March 1942 I-153 1635 hrs Nr.1
14th June 1942 Il-2 1449 hrs Nr.2
11th July 1942 Jak-7 1306 hrs Nr.3
21st July 1942 LaGG-3 1640 hrs Nr.4
27th July 1942 MiG-1 1805 hrs Nr.5
6th August 1942 P-39 25km South-east of Yelets 1820 hrs 1800 metres Nr.6
12th August 1942 Il-2 55km South of Yelets 0812 hrs 50 metres Nr.7
12th August 1942 P-39 60km North of Voronezh 0832 hrs 2800 metres Nr.8
9th September 1942 Il-2 20km North-West of Sloboda 1547 hrs 500 metres Nr.9
15th September 1942 Il-2 30km South of Voronezh 1255 hrs 200 metres Nr.10


Friedrich Blaurock, all his claims were with 7./JG77, the first as a Feldwebel, the others as an Oberleutnant. On 19th July 1941 he force-landed his Bf109 at Lunga after being hit by Russian flak, but was unharmed. On 25th July 1941 he was listed as missing when his Bf109 came down, but did return.. What was this guy doing for the next three years?

24th February 1941 Blenheim sea 70km West of Guernsey 1430 hrs u/c
4th July 1941 SB-2 1900 hrs Nr.1
10th July 1941 DB-3 1130 hrs Nr.2
17th August 1941 DB-3 1745 hrs Nr.3
15th September 1941 MiG-3 1300 hrs Nr.4
9th October 1941 I-16 1510 hrs 2000 metres Nr.5
27th October 1941 I-15 1239 hrs Nr.6
9th November 1941 DB-3 1348 hrs 100 metres v.n.e-a.s.m Nr.7
9th March 1942 I-153 1250 hrs Nr.8


Rudolf.Funcke

Apart from his claim, I know absolutey nothing about this guy, though due to his lack of success in the West, I suspect he survived the war? All his claims were as an Unteroffizier with 6./JG77.

13th August 1942 LaGG-3 60km North of Vorenezh 1339 hrs Nr.1
18th September 1942 MiG-1 10km South-South-East of Vorenezh 1310 hrs 500 metres Nr.2
19th August 1942 Il-2 60km North of Vorenezh 1509 hrs tief Nr.3
22nd September 1942 LaGG-3 25km South-East of Vorenezh 1619 hrs 5300 metres Nr.4
1st December 1943 P-38 1230 hrs 2500 metres Nr.5



Fritz.Kärcher

Apart from his claims I can find absolutely nothing on this guy. All his claims were as an Unteroffizier with 8./JG77.

4th July 1941 SB-3 1612 hrs Nr.1
7th July 1941 DB-3 0816 hrs Nr.2
12th August 1941 I-16 1450 hrs Nr.3
18th August 1941 TB-6 1724 hrs 50 metres Nr.4
31st August 1941 DB-3 1632 hrs Nr.5
1st September 1941 DB-3 1740 hrs Nr.6
2nd September 1941 I-15 1058 hrs Nr.7
5th September 1941 I-16 u/c
26th September 1941 Severskiy u/c


Karl-Ulrich.Rohde

Again apart from his claims I can find nothing more about him. All his claims were as an Unteroffizier with 5./JG77. Suspect he can to grief in late summer 1943?

25th April 1943 Spitfire 30km South-West of Tunis 0950 hrs 3000 metres Nr.1
8th May 1943 Spitfire 1550 hrs Nr.2
10th July 1943 P-40 80km South-West of Marsalla 0928 hrs 1200 metres Nr.3
10th July 1943 P-40 10km North-West of Trapani 1805 hrs 2000 metres Nr.4
19th August 1943 P-51 25km West-South-West of Cap Vaticano 1116 hrs 700 metres Nr.5

Again very grateful for any information like Date of Birth, Date of Death/wounds, other units, just anything really.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

1944-09-29, 11./JG 11, FW 190A-8, 380165, 9 schw, Raum Arnhem, Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Uffz Rößner, Ludwig, +
1944-04-18, 2./Jagdlehrer-Überprüf.Gr., Bü 131B-3, 332, TE+HJ, Fl.Pl. Orange-Caritat, Absturz nach Rammung von Bf 109. Bruch 75 %.
Flugzeugführer Ofw Blaurock, Friedrich, +
Fluggast Stabsarzt Hofmann, Herbert, +
1941-10-23, III/JG 77, Ju 52/3m, Unbekannt. Bruch ? %.
Fluggast Fw Kärchner, Friedrich, vermißt

Matti

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Thanks Matti

Thought that some might have come to grief.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

I do not think these Ludwig Rössner's are the same guy. The Uffz. Ludwig Rössner of III./JG 11 (*01.06.1922, +29.09.1944) left JGr Süd in July 1944 when his training was completed.

Johannes, are you sure about the first name of the Rössner that was with JG 77?

J.

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Hi John,
you are sure about Ludwig Rössner in JGr Süd?
I have a only have a Ogf Ernst Rössner in my list of JGr Süd pilots.
(http://www.u-air.info/www/uair/uair....d_200?OpenForm)
But i'm still trying to verify, check and update the list. Do you have any background info for him in JGr. Süd?

Thanks a lot
Lino

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Uffz. Ludwig Rössner had EM 68420/472 which puts him in 4./JGr Süd on 1.7.1944.

Cheers,

John

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Hi Guys

Thanks for getting back to me on this one. 99% certain it's Ludwig, however there is no reason why he could'nt have have been a trainer rather than training with Jgr.Sud, it would certain expalin what he had been doing for two years. Jg11 did seem to be a meat grinding machine that lot's of ace migrated to only to come to grief, not as bad as Jg300 which was like a death sentence, but bad enough, trouble is that they generally didn't live long enough to become well known there!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Johannes, Since your on JG77 what do you have on the fate of Fw Franz Schulte 6./JG77 who went missing on the 12Aug42. According to what I read in one Russian account he went head to head in a dogfight with Kapitan Aleksandr Fedorovich Avdeev's (HSU and 5 +1 victory ace) Airacobra from the 153 IAP. The P-39 collided with the Bf 109 killing Avdeev but Schulte's was last seen parachuting to the ground. Shulte's last victory was recorded as a LaGG-3. In the story that I believe I read on www.airforce.ru some years back it stated that Schulte's deliberately rammed the P-39 (unusual for a change unless he was already wounded). In Mikhail Bykov's book on Soviet Aces he stated the story did not have standing in VVS documents but was by the Soviet press. Avdeev's last victory was a Bf 109 on the 04Jul42 north of Vyaznovatka and was listed as killed on the 12Aug42 ("Did not return from combat mission").

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

I have both a Ludwig Rößner with 11 claims in 1942, and a Hans Rössner with about 12 in 1944, both from JG 77. Ludwig's claims are from the OKL and the Prien/Bock lists in "Jagdflieger Verbande"; Hans' from the OKL and the original JG 77 volumes from the same author(s). They haven't reach that far in the "Jagdflieger Verbande" series yet.

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Hi Jim

I have done a biography on Hans Rösner, not twelve claims though, that would come as you say from the old Jochen Prein book, which was pre-micro film era(lots of speculation). Rösner was born on 25th May 1920. On 23rd December 1944 he was shot down and killed in combat with American Thunderbolt's, his Bf109 coming down South of Müstereifel, Germany. He made two claims against American heavies as a Feldwebel with 8./Jg77:-

31st May 1944 B-24 1028 hrs 5500 metres a.s.m Nr.1
15th July 1944 B-24 1212 hrs 5500 metres v.n.e-a.s.m Nr.2.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Hi John and Johannes,

i checked my sources and i found "my" Rössner:
Rössner, Ernst,
Obergefreiter, Flugzeugführer, 2./JGr.Süd,
+ 01.09.1944, Flugplatz Neuruppin Absturz. FW 190 A-4,

Finally i will add "Ludwig Rössner" to my list of JGr. Süd

Best regards

Lino

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Michael,

This story is pure fiction. By the time of Schulte emergency landing on Soviet held territory, Avdeev had been already dead for several hours, shot down by Alfred Kienath.

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Hi Nikita

I was just about to start on JG54 queries, but as you asked. I have Oberfeldwebel Franz Schulte claiming a LaGG-3 about 20km East of Vorenezh at 1240 hrs at an altitude of 800 metres whilst with 6./Jg77. He then force-landed his Bf109 6km North-North-East of Priwalowka(sorry don't know the distance between the two) this was his forty-first confirmed claim(three more u/c) If indeed he force-landed sortly after(during the same sortie as his claim) then somebody else completed the paperwork for his claim, on his behalf!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

I have for Schulte:
1942-08-12, 6./JG 77, Bf 109F-4, 13162, 16 gelbe, 6 km nordnordöstlich Priwalowka (Pl.Qu. 92 224), Bauchlandung jenseits nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Fw Schulte, Franz, vermißt

Maybe POW, can anybody confirm?

Matti

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

It seems that the author (it was in Russian) believed the story enough to write it out. I believe now it might have been in the discussion section rather then the main story section as it seems like the air force would have did more checking before posting. Nikita, do you have who might have brought him down in that dogfight?

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

It seems that it was promising to tight Avdeev to Schulte and create interesting story. Both were aces, clashed with each other and died in air ramming. Sounds thrilling indeed.

Matti,

Schulte was surely captured, but it is impossible to trace him in captivity. I presume he was killed instantly after landing or on the way to headquarters

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

After reading the above I looked up Uffz Alfred Keinath of 4./JG77 and there isn't much on "Kracker" except his victories and that he recieved the EK 1 &2 and the fighter operational clasp. I found the following in JFV 9/III.
03Aug42 Bf 109F-4 ws. 13+-, Fahrwerksschaden, Kastornoje unter 5%
12Aug42 Bf 109F-4 werk. 13 188 ws. 11+-, Luftkampf, Bauchlandung, 10 km W of Semljansk, 20%
16Aug42 Bf 109F-4 wek. 7028 ws. 4+- Luftkampf, Notlandung, 1 km S. of Latnaja
Victories in Russia
(1) LaGG 3 27Jul42 11:41
(2) LaGG 3 9Aug42 18:50 PlQu 92324
(3) Airacobra 12Aug42 07:19 PlQu 92324 (Kapt Aleksandr Fedorovich Avdeev 153 IAP 5+1 victories and HSU: KIA)
(4) Il-2 13Sep42 PlQu 92593
(5) Hurricane 13Sep42 10:25 PlQu 92654
(6) Il-2 15Sep42 10:32 PlQu 92211
Following unconfirmed
15Sep42 two LaGG 3
16Sep42 LaGG-3
I don't have any of the books of JFV 11 so I don't know what happen to him in Africa and what he claimed.

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Michael,

Uffz. Alfred Keinath added two USAAF Airacobras to his tally on 13 March 1943. On 26 March 1943, still flying with 4./JG 77, he was wounded and had to bale out of his Bf 109 G-6 WNr. 16421, white 5, after an aerial combat with Spitfires south of El Hamma. I am not sure whether he has returned to combat flying after his recovery.

Hope this helps a little,

Ota

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Thanks Ota, Do you know what USAAF Airacobra unit it was on the 13Mar43? I read that there was a 3rd Airacobra on the 13Mar43 but it was not confirmed. It also has him listed on "Kracker" in 2./Ful. Ub.F.Gr.-1 but doesn't say when.

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

Hi,

Just noticed this old thread while looking for something else. Alfred Keinath never flew in combat again, but he did resume flying with 2./Fl.Ü.Gr. 1 on 3 August 1944, and up to 6 March 1945 flew the Bf 109 G-8, G-14, K-4, and the FW 190.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: Problematical JG77 pilots X five
 

On 23/24-Oct-41 are recorded two Ju 52s lost with passengers in the Gen.Qu. reports. I don't have any names recorded for the passengers, but one may have included Kärcher/Kärchner. The 2nd would seem the more likely suspect, assuming this Ju 52 isn't one of those 'missing' losses from the Gen.Qu. reports. Does this help at all in identifying the Ju 52 in which this pilot was lost?

Ju 52/3mge, 5382, Reichert, Ofw. Hermann, , , , Luftverkehrsgr. Tempelhof, , CE+AS, CE+AS, , 24-Oct-41, Killed in crash due to icing. Bf & Bm also killed, 2.Bm injured. Also 2 Heeres passengers killed, 2 injured., ex D-ARET, Lw.Bfh.Mitte/Deutschland, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol.7, Menke, bei Petrich, 100%, H, Bf Fw. Johannes Kleinke, Bm Fw. Walter Kürzdorfer & 2.Bm Fw. Günther Niemann, ,
Ju 52/3mg4e, 6772, Albert, Uffz. Karl, , I., 1., KGr.z.b.V. 104, , , CA+BZ, , 24-Oct-41, Crew killed in crash. 9 passengers also killed., , Transportverbände/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol.6, Menke, Cahul bei Galati, 100%, H, Bf Gefr. Johann Blum & Bm Uffz. Ewald Seidler, ,