Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

On offer for what I regard as too much.

http://www.regimentals.co.uk/viewpho...h=56188&phqu=9






Usual disclaimer,
Ed

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Ed.

Yes, potentially a very useful reference source, but at about US $9,000 the FB info will likely go into a private collection and never see the light of day anytime soon. If the info in the sales promotion write up is an accurate reflection of what is in the FB, and all the victory claims were officially credited (a highly unlikely event), this could fill in about 20% of the missing victory claims info on the Ring/Bock loss lists for II./ZG1 and III./ZG76 for 1940. Nodinger was apparently a member of 6./ZG1 which was re-designated 9./ZG76 during 07.40. His name does not even appear on the Ring/Bock victory lists for these two units.

Here is what I quickly extracted from the sales promotion flyer (not verified against the FB page fragments shown) for the 1939-40 period. This is the material that relates to the EoE research project.

Hellmut Nodinger pilot Bf109 & Bf110

Uffz/Fw (promoted 01.01.40) Hellmut Nodinger (3./JGr101 - 6./ZG1 - 9/ZG76). DoB 09.04.15. EK2 awarded 24.05.40. EK1 awarded unknown date. Summary info from FB for sale lists victories claimed on 18 or 21 Dec 1939 (Wellington); Western Campaign: 02.06.40 (Potez 63); 04.06.40 (French Curtiss); 04.06.40 (Swiss Bf109); 08.06.40 (Swiss Bf109); and 11.6.40 (Spitfire Portland England); Battle of Britain: 08.08.40 (Hurricane England); 13.08.40 (Hurricane Yeovil, England); 15.08.40 (Hurricane); 29.08.40 (Spitfire); and 08.09.40 (Hurricane Isle of Wight).

It's possible that someone obtained a copy of this critical 4th FB before it went on the market, or was otherwise able to extract info from it. If someone out there did, or a member of the family reads this, I'd sure like to hear from them.

Regards,

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

The blue writtings added recently ??

An idea of when he went to " Bach" ??

Rémi

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Hello Larry,

As a side point, what is all this I read about "disappearing into a private collection?" I don't intend to sound mean-spirited or wish to embarrass anyone, but I can't picture a good reason. History is to be shared or published or at least made accessible through some group, archive or museum.



Best,
Ed

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Perhaps one of our German researchers could contact the Aero Club in Munich to determine if he was a member, and perhaps, in the process, confirm some aspects of his wartime service.


http://translate.google.com/translat...26prmd%3Dimvns



Ed

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Hello Gentlemen
I would agree with Larry that this is potentially a gold mine in so far as 1940 bf110 claims are concerned. If I'm not mistaken, at least one german claim (emphesis on "claim") for Swiss A/C on 4/6/40 was to a "NN" of 6/ZG1 (Nodinger?).
I checked Boiten's "Nachtjager War Diaries" Vol.1 regarding the B-17 claim on 14/10/43 while with 3/NJG101 and it is substantiated, although in that work his name is spelled with a "M" instead of an "N".
The collection is extensive, and would, at least on the surface, seem genuine. Larry, hopefully it will become available for further research by your group.

Good Luck

Dean

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Thanx Ed and Dean,

Ed, my comment related to the fact that the collection is so over-priced that only someone who is a rich and very serious memorabilia collector (as opposed to us poor historians) would ever consider buying this at that price. If it does sell, I wouldn't expect that they would be very eager to share for free what they've paid so dearly for.

There is some question about the validity of some of the info on claims made in the cover story about Nodinger. The "either 18 or 21 December 1939" incident doesn't pan out very well. There were no Wellington losses on the 21st, so almost certainly this info relates to the 18th (the Battle of the Heligoland Bight), when 15 Wellingtons were SD or Crashed out of 22. That air battle has been pretty well documented by Prien and Chris Shores, as well as in our Heinrich Weiss manuscript and other sources. There were only two claims by 3./JGr101 pilots confirmed from that action, Oblt Dietrich Robitsch, the StaKap, and Oblt. Rolf Kaldrack. Now this doesn't mean that Nodlinger didn't participate in attacks, or even the shooting down some of the Wellingtons, it just appears that he wan't among the potential claimants whose results were subseqently verified. Shooting down a large bomber often took the combined attacks of several aircraft to achieve results.

There are so many holes and missing info in the 1940 II./ZG1 and III./ZG76 victory claims info that survived the war that judging any of the other claims during that period is almost impossible, although some of them may well be accurate. Then there is the problem of the notes in blue added after the original writing. Still some serious questions about what we might learn from the FB, even if we can eventually get access to it. However, I'd much rather have it available for evaluation than not. The fact that Nodinger isn't even mentioned by Ring/Bock on their loss lists for 1940, still bothers me.

Regards,

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Fantastic group of items.

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Regarding Larrys concerns, could one assume that this collection would be open to examination for authenticity by the sellers?
Not to go all "CSI", but could the blue handwriting have been added immediately after the fact, not 30-40 years later by someone looking to alter the documents? Could an expert in this field be able to clarify this?
Irregardless of this, is there any documentation anywhere, aside from these log books, that would verify Hellmut Nodinger's service record in 1939-40?
As stated earlier, it seems like a very extensive, and detailed collection that would seem genuine, but agreed, hard to explain how a 10+ victory bf110 pilot (Not forgetting the Heinz Wilberg story) would have gone unnoticed at this early stage of the war.

Curious as always

Dean

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

I suggest contacting the seller. After looking at the award documents more closely, it appears the name should be be spelled Helmut Nödinger. There is no second L in Helmut.



Ed

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Dean,

I'm not a memorabilia collector, although I have acquired some very interesting items over the years, but for a price anything like what the seller here is asking, I'd certainly insist on a careful evaluation of what I was getting and authentication of it before shelling out that kind of money for the memorabilia of a pilot with a lot of undocumented claims for what he did. I have a hard time believing that the basic FBa would not be authentic, but that doesn't mean that what is claimed in them in terms of victories stands up to scrutiny. Very unusual for what seems like a very successful early-war pilot to drop off the radar for much of the rest of his career. There's a story there.

Regards,

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Hello Larry,

On one of the documents can be seen, that Nödinger got his EK1 on 4th September 1940.

Best regards, 'eagle eye Marcel' / Venlo

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Marcel,

Thanks for spotting this and letting us know.

Regards,

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Hello,

Two of our EoE experts have reported back to me their opinions about the Nodinger FB, including comparisons with the FB of other veterans of the units that he served with during the same periods. Both feel that the overall claims of a dozen victories or so over his career are significantly exaggerated, possibly after the fact, to improve his war record. This may have been done for entirely understandable reasons at the time, but a number of his claims don't hold up well to historical scrutiny. It looks like perhaps a third to half of them are either documentable (the B-17) or could be supported as a "benefit of the doubt." The fact that he won the EK II and I by 04.09.40 and had been promoted to Feldwebel, indicates that he probably did accomplish some victories, perhaps several, during this period, and showed potential leadership qualities. We think that about three of the 1940 victories may have merit, possibly more, but there just isn't enough evidence one way or another to reach a valid conclusion. This in no way takes away from the value of the collection as documents, medals and materials from a Luftwaffe Zerstörer pilot. These materials, including the Flugbuch, all appear to be genuine. However, if the very high price being asked for the materials is based upon Nodinger's being a well known and accomplished "ace" during this time, that, without further information or support, simply does not stand up to historical scrutiny.

Unfortunately, it does not appear that his FB is going to add significantly to our information on victory claims by the units that he served with during 1940, although even three recognized claims during that period, if the could be further documented, would be welcome in helping to complete the record. I wish that it were otherwise. However, the great potential value of his FB is in documenting combat missions flown by 3./JGr101, II./ZG1 and III./ZG76 during the period of Nodinger's service with these units. Since by and large the records of these units have not survived the war, any documentation for these unit's activities during this period are historically valuable. It remains to be seen if these FB, especially the 4th one, will eventually become available to researchers in the field.

Regards,

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Hi All
Just going over a few of the legible flight log entries in the excerpts posted. Wondering if someone could confirm that "L-Speier" is short for Lachen-Speyerdorf ?. Secondly, are the entries shown take off points, or the destination of the flight? My suspicion is destination, as some of the L-Speier/ Frieberg flights seem of relatively short duration.
Any information much appreciated.

Dean

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Larry,

This is a theory but I believe Nodinger was a Bordfunker in 1940 not a pilot. Many Bf became pilots later in the war which may explain the pilots badge. I believe the additional notation is from someone adding his pilots victories at a later date. I believe the seller is deliberate trying to deceive that this is a pilots logbook (during B of B) to get more value in the sale because the pages of the logbooks only show one half of the page, the other half would have determined if he was a Bf and who his pilot was.

As to who his pilot is I believe there is 2 possibilities, Kaldrack or Tonne or even both? One of the victories noted was on 11 June 1940 but if you look at the pages closely there is no entry for 11 June – goes 10th then 12th. Furthermore the entry shown for the Hurricane victory has the date cut off but if you look at the hour tally at the end of the page it would make it after 18 June. I believe the write up is wrong and it should be 11 July where Kaldrack and Tonne both claimed Hurricanes. Since the Hurricane is noted at the time of entry (nota later entry) suggests that Nodinger as Bf was the true victor of this claim, though most list seem to credit the pilot. Also you have stated in previous posts that both Kaldrack and Tonne claimed swiss Bf109s on 8th June which matches. The 18 or 23 December comment suggests that this could have been Kaldrack, but Kaladrack was in 4/ZG1, 7/ZG76 and EK is 9/ZG76. Furthermore on 18 December 1939 the unit was JGr101 and I believe they were flying Bf109s, so he couldn’t have been flying with Kaldrack.

This is what I believed happened. Kaldracks Bf (Fw Hermanski) was WIA on 24 May 40 and Nodinger became Kaminski’s Bf thus the uncertainty of Kaldrack’s 18 or 23 Dec 39 claim that was noted at a later date. At some point Hermanski returned and Nodignger became Tonnes Bf. Kaminski became Gruppenkammandeur in August 1940 while Tonne became Staffelkapitan of 9/ZG76 in August 1940, so when Nodinger received the EKI it was while with 9/ZG76 on 4 Sep 1940. The write up also states that there was a Blenhiem on 23 June 1941, Tonne claimed a Blenhiem on 18 April 41 protecting a convoy, this may be another error but without seeing the logbook page I cannot tell.

Anyway, I believe the document to be real and would be beneficial to your project.

Regards,

Craig…

Re: Hellmut Nodinger collection
 

Craig,

Interesting theory. This all just goes to indicate that the buyer better know what he's doing if he acquires this FB. Could be a valuable historical resource document, but too many things just don't add up here about the claimed 1940 career.

Regards,