Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

On this date, over southern Sardinia the 325th Fighter Group flying P40 Warhawks was in combat with an LW Unit. At the end of the engagement the group made claims for 21 Me109s! Does anyone know which LW unit this was? Apparently after the war one of the pilots of the 325th found that in fact 30-35 Bf109s had been shot down, and several others damaged. The german unit was apparently new to the theatre and was withdrawn afterwards.

I suspect overclaiming but even 10-15 losses in a single LW gruppe would be catastrophic!

regards

Keith

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

hm if I get all Luftwaffe losses in this area together - all means also Bombers and other units I get 11 aircraft lost (7 of them bombers) and around 3 of them lost due to accidents. ?

JG 77 lost 4 Bf 109 in combat and 1 due a recce mission to unknown reasons...


khorat
Michael Balss

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Yes, these 5 109's are from III./JG77 which was based in Sardinia in that time. Looks like an overclaiming of 300% too high.

What were the losses of 325th Fighter Group?

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

In this area, it is possible that Italian fighters (Bf 109 or Macchi fighters) were involved in this battle and that some were shot down too, even if overclaiming is very, very probable in all cases will still be important in this case.

"Apparently after the war one of the pilots of the 325th found that in fact 30-35 Bf109s had been shot down, and several others damaged. The german unit was apparently new to the theatre and was withdrawn afterwards."

As in all other cases I have read about like that of wartime-confirmation or just after the war, it is impossible to confirm it in any other source now available. A whole German Gruppe decimated in just its first fight and withdrawn would not have gone unnoticed.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

July 30, 1943
SARDINIA: While undertaking a fighter sweep over the island, 20 P-40s of the 325th Fighter Group’s 317th Fighter Squadron and 16 from the 319th Fighter Squadron are attacked by 40 Bf 109s at about 0950 hours. During the course of a 35-minute melee over the Sassari area, 21 Bf 109s are downed against the loss of one P-40 and its pilot. 1stLt Walter B. Walker, Jr., of the 317th Fighter Squadron, achieves ace status in this action when he downs three of the Bf 109s. For once, GAF records show USAAF claims to be on the slim side; apparently 30 Bf 109s fail to return to their bases.
[Eric Hammel: Air War Europa (Pacifica Press, 1994), page 161].

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

You forgot to mention the spitfire top cover.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Hi,


There was definitely no new Luftwaffe fighter Gruppe in Sardinia on 30 July 1943: III./J.G. 77 and the remnants of II./J.G. 51 were the only units on the island at that time. A strength return on the evening of 29 July shows:

II./J.G. 51, 5 Bf 109s, 2 serviceable
III./J.G. 77, 29 Bf 109s, 23 serviceable

The reconnaissance Bf 109 was shot down by the 52nd FG at 07:45 north-east of Bizerta, and was from III./J.G. 77. This combat was unrelated to the 325th FG combat. The Spitfires had scrambled at 07:27, and claimed two FW 190s shot down near Bizerta.

The 325th FG flew the sweep from 08:00 to 11:05, and made claims from 09:45 to 10:15. Final tally was:

- 21 Bf 109s destroyed
- 3 Bf 109s probably destroyed
- 1 Mc. 202 probably destroyed
- 3 Bf 109s damaged

III./J.G. 77 scrambled from Chilivani at 09:25. Four Bf 109s from the Gruppe were shot down, with one pilot killed and three wounded. A first-hand account from Eduard Isken mentions the presence of Lightnings as well. III./J.G. 77 pilots claimed five P-40s shot down between 09:40 and 10:10.

The Checkertail Clan book confirms that only one of the 36 American aircraft involved was lost on this mission, and none were damaged. Lt. Bob Sederberg failed to return, and was taken prisoner.

An account of the combat appeared in 9th and 12th Air Forces in the Sicilian Campaign:

"Taking off at 0800, the 317th Fighter Squadron flew up the west side of the island. At a point due west of Sassari they were attacked by a force of 25 to 30 Me-109's which was augmented during the course of the ensuing air battle by additional flights of Me-109's and Mc-202's, bringing the total number of enemy aircraft engaged to between 40 and 50. Approaching from a northwesterly direction the Jerries attacked the rear of the formation on the same level as the P-40's, whose altitude was about 9,000 feet. During the first attack four Me-109's were seen to crash almost simaltaneously, while in one area alone there were nine fires from burning aircraft. In the course of the 20- to 30- minute running battle there were 21 enemy aircraft destroyed and four probables reported for the loss of one P-40."

III./J.G. 77's first two victory claims were made in the Sassari area, so it seems very likely that it was the first Axis unit to engage the Americans.

The account goes on to describe the "poorly executed tactics" and "lack of coordination" demonstrated by the Axis pilots.


Sources
- Hanf, Logbook
- ULTRA
- Luftwaffe victory claims material
- Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss material
- 9th and 12th Air Forces in the Sicilian Campaign
- McDowell & Hess, Checkertail Clan
- Olynyk, USAAF Claims
- Prien, Jagdgeschwader 77


That covers the German and American sides. I hope someone can provide information about any Italian involvement in this combat. Alex Ragatzu's book would be the best source for this combat, but unfortunately I don't own a copy.


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

No mention of JU-52's?

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Oberst,

On 30 July 1943 there were no American claims for transport aircraft destroyed or damaged, and one German report of an Me 323 lost in north-western Corsica.


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Thanks for the additional information! :)

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

The Me 323 fell to a Marauder of 14 Sqd.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

So it would appear for 21 read 4 or less, and German claims a little high but within the 1:3 ration that seems to pertain to most air combats. The 325th don't appear to award shared claims so it looks like everyone who fired at an aeroplane was credited with a victory.

It seems that this could be down to inexperience. Theirs claims appear to have more validity as the months go by.

regards

Keith

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Quite special thing, such a big "pure" fighter-fighter-battle!

Does anyone know which subseries of P-40 was in use by then in the 325th FG?

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

K's I believe. It may have been 'L's' but I don't think they were fully equipt with them until August? Could be wrong though.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

According to the combat reports of the 325th FG, the were flying mostly P-40Fs, with a few P-40Ls also.

Frank.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

The 325th were still using F's at that point? I did not know that.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Italian aircraft were not involved in the combat with 325th FG.

Gianandrea

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

From a technical point of view, on the first look, the P-40 stands no chance against a Bf109G. But when one look into the BD605 problematic and then rethinks that some of the 109's might have carried the gunpod-Rüstsatz, then the performance of such a 1,3ata-3xMG151/20-109G-6 is only a bit better then that of a P-40F.

Interesting is the following statement:
It implements that already by mid-1943, US-pilots were much better then their German counterparts.

Can anyone state who were Gruppenkommandeur and Staffelkapitäne and other aces of III./JG77 on that day?

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

That is a very good question. I can't find any information on III./JG 77 during that time period.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Hi,

It certainly strains credibility that Warhawks could claim such large scores against the Bf109G. Evidence prior and post the period of the Summer of 1943 indicate that the Warhawk was a good ground attack fighter but a less than average air fighter except against adversaries such as the Ju52, SM82 or Me323. Experienced commonwealth P40 pilots were scaling down thir claims because of the technological/training/experience of their Axis fighter opponents

I believe that the over inflated scores of Warhawk pilots was largely due to the confusion and inexperience of the group in air combat. Veterans like the 33rd and 57th seem to be more accurate about their results, By 1944 the 325th was making more accurate predictions.


cheer-o

Keith

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

The Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 77 at that time was Kurt Ubben, had been almost 2 years, but I have no info did he fly that day or not.

Juha

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Hello Juha,
Where did you get your information from? Thanks.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Hi,

Below are some pilots with III./J.G. 77 in June/July 1943. Victory tallies are approximate, and I'm not sure how many of them were involved in this particular combat.

Stab III./J.G. 77
Fw. Hans-Werner Renzow - 4 victories (involved in 30 July 1943 combat)
Major Kurt Ubben - 109 victories

7./J.G. 77
Oblt. Eberhard Niese - 14 victories
Ofw. Johann Pichler - 35 victories

8./J.G. 77
Hptm. Emil Omert - 62 victories
Ofw. Heinrich Hackler - 50 victories
Ofw. Eduard Isken - 34 victories

9./J.G. 77
Lt. Heribert Bertram - 0 victories (involved in 30 July 1943 combat)
Oblt. Wolfgang Ernst - 28 victories (involved in 30 July 1943 combat)

There are indications in interrogation reports that Gruppe morale was quite low in the summer of 1943, but as the above reveals, there were still some experienced and successful pilots in the unit.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Thanks, Andrew!

The numerical advantage of the 325th FG must also be taken into account:

36 P-40 vs. max. 22 Bf109 from III./JG77 is a factor of 1,6. I think that in such situations, it was extremely difficult to keep up "coordination and good tactics" in a prolonged dogfight even if the Germans had surprise on their side in the beginning.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Hi,

I take the point that the P40s outnumbered the Bf109s marginally but the 325th was an inexperienced Fighter group with just 3 months front-line combat behind them. The 33rd, 57th and 324th all had more experience and much lower victory tallies in largely the same timescale. I agree the LW fighter units casualty figures and the lack of an Italian option indicateS massive overclaiming. The absence of evidence to the contrary doesn't mean the evidence to substantiate these claims has been misplaced. Without a credible reason to dismiss them the facts speak for themselves.The 325th never show any shared victories at this time. If the pilots all thought they were claiming individually then surely that's the best explanation? There's more than enough evidence of this in other units, both RAF and USAAF. Without a rigorous examination by their I/O then perhaps the claims were in good faith. Did the 325th fighters have camera guns? If they did indeed shoot down 4 Bf109G then that's a pretty decent result on their side.

It would be interesting to know that the other USAAF units thoughts of their performance in these engagement.

regards

Keith

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Now I see the picture:

30.July.1943 32 P-40s of 317th & 319th FS was on routine sweep over southern Sardinia. They were jumped by as they say 30 Me 109's & another force of C.202's. The P-40 claimed 21 Me 109's, but III./JG 77 records show five losses for that day. Overclaiming for sure. But with that many aircraft twisting and turning, its to be expected

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Yep. To shoot down 4-5 Bf109s is a decent result. They got more accurate as the war progressed, especially against multi-engined opponents... although shared claims again are absent, and like many of the more famous fighter groups they seem to get involved in a race for "kills" which still is misleading. If the losses were true one wonders how Air Intelligence was able to reconcile German war production with LW fighters being shot out of the sky in amounts that would produce serious problems for LW morale!

I wonder if later claims of post-war encounters with LW pilots who admit catastrophic losses are an indication that there were questions as to the validity of claims at the time?

regards

Keith

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

From several sources on JG 77 and on Kurt Ubben. To mention two Holm's site http://www.ww2.dk/ and Kacha's site http://www.luftwaffe.cz/ .

Juha

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Hello Andrew!
thanks for the info on the aces of III./JG 77.
I should have remembered Omert and Pichler.

Juha

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Thanks for that Juha!

Reading some of the reports of the P-40 pilots on that day, they seem to indicate that the 109's went into a luftberry and the Mc.202's did the same in the opposite direction.

I thought that the -40's were doing a low level sweep, if thats the case, the 109's would 'zoom & boom', not go into the circle.

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

As Gianandrea correctly pointed out in the previous page, no Italian fighters were involved at all in this combat.

The daily operational report of Stato Maggiore coming from Aerosardegna clearly stated the flights made on that 30 July in detail and no combat whatsoever was made.

So we have an ID problem adding to the inflated claims... :rolleyes: ;)

Bf 109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Hi guys

Just as an aside I will add that according to Christer Bergström a total of 888 German fighters were lost in the Mediterranean theater from November 1942 through May 1943. According to the Strength Report web page for III./JG 77 at http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg77.html this Gruppe lost 67 aircraft "durch Feindeinwirkung" (due to enemy action) in this time period. It suffered 19 additional losses in this category in June 1943 and July 1943. I have no idea how many pilots the unit lost in this time period but it does appear as losses were heavy thus giving credence to the information Arthy has provided that morale was low. It certainly stands to reason that many of its pilots at the time of this particular engagement were probably as inexperienced in aerial combat as the pilots of the 325th FG thus leading to the over claiming involved on the German side and the remarks by the Americans concerning their opponents.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

After I read the thread properly, I found out that the Americans came in a 3000meters/9000ft and that the first attack by 109's happened from 6o'clock and the same altitude level.
Also, I propose that if the Germans used the circle, they did it later in the melee as a defensive measure, not as an attack in the beginning ;).

Are there more interesting details in the US reports you have available?

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

From: Checkertails Over Sardinia, pg.72

"1st Lt Walter B 'Bud' Walker of the 317th FS was credited with three kills. During the fight, Walker found himself taking on three Me 109's alone. He shot down two of the attackers, but by then a third Me 109 was firmly on his tail and pounding Walker's P-40 with cannon fire. Flying just above the trees, the American hauled his Warhawk into a tight turn - the Me 109 pilot tried to follow, but his less manoeuverable fighter snap-rolled and crashed into the ground."

It also states: In post mission reports, the enemy fighters did not do the normal "zoom & boom" which would indicate that the first spotted the 109's above. Then it says the 109's instead tried to "turn" with them. It makes no sense to me.


Yes, it would seem to be that way. Reminds me of the "Palms Sunday Massacre".

Re: Bf109 massacre on 30 July 1943
 

Attached are the relevant pages.

Source: "Luftwaffe in Sardegna" by Ragatzu, published by Alisea Edizioni, 2010, ISBN: 978-88-902014-3-1, 190 pages

HTH,
Leon Venter