Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Guys!

During research for the He 162 I found this pics:

http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/d...ages/20459.jpg
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/d...ages/20461.jpg
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/d...ages/20462.jpg
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/d...ages/20475.jpg
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/d...ages/20646.jpg

That's the 120076 now under display in the Canada Aviation Museum in Ottawa.

My questions:

Has anybody ever seen a wartime pic of the He 162 having such a camouflage on the upper side of the wing?

I have no facts about the museum history of the 120076. Was there a restauration or is the plane in it's original condition from 1945?

More pics of the plane you will find here: http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/c...&submit=Search


Cheers, Simon

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hello, Simon,

a wartime picture of W.Nr. 120067 can be found on p. 374 in

SMITH, J. R.; CREEK, E. J. (2005): Jagdwaffe – Jet Fighters and Rocket Interceptors. Luftwaffe Colours Vol. Five Section 4. Ian Allan Publishing. Hersham.

or on p. 32 in

BALOUS, M., BILY, M. (2004):Heinkel He 162 Spatz (Volksjäger). MBI. Praha.

The Jagdwaffe reproduction is the better one.

The original camo differs from the museum pics in several aspects so the a/c must have been repainted.

HTH

Stefan

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Stefan!

W.Nr. 120076 not 120067!!!

Nevertheless thanks for the try of assistance.

Cheers, Simon

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Simon,
I never saw an He 162 photo with splinter camo on wings or fuselage. The Salamander was the first one to use the simplified camo scheme without the splinter aplication, as can be seen on his factory camouflage scheme. The museum looks to me a badly done camo restoration... but?

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Sergio!

The "Spatz" not "Salamander" had wodden wings. They were produced by small carpenter companys. Maybe possible that they painted such camo on the wing????? The colours differ from the other colours of the plane.

Has anybody ever seen a official document for the painting instructions for the He 162? I haven't, I only know only all the well known publications showing the wings in RLM81 and 82. (One colour per side) I have never seen a wartime pic of the He 162 showing the upper side of the plane.

Cheers, Simon

Aller guten Dinge...
 

Hi, Simon,

sorry for mixing up the W.Nr. He 162 W.Nr. 120067 is a "yellow 4" too.

Let me have a second attempt:

On p. 28 of an older issue of the french modelling magazine "Replic" (only kept the pages of interest, issue # isn't noted) there is a color picture of W.Nr. 120076, according to the caption taken on the 2nd of august 1945. Again especially the demarcation line between upper and lower camo bears no resemblence to the musuem camo pattern. This once more leads to the conclusion that this aircraft must have been repainted.

Now I hope this REALLY helps!

Best regards

Stefan

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi !

• 120067 « white4 » is an A-1 (30mm guns) with the “diving eagle” from 1./JG1 on portside. Photos from this one could be found in near every publications about He 162, late JG1 or Luftwaffe camo.

• 120076 “yellow4” is far less known. It’s an A-2 (20mm guns) with very probably “Danzig’s lion” emblem from 3./JG1 on port-side. Only two valuable photos are known from me. One (1) & (2), was taken during surrender at Leck and clearly show no emblem on starboard. The second (3) is in color and taken at Farnborough before 4th of August 45 shows a usual camo sheme with grey unpainted jet engine air entrance and British markings over the Germans one.

This airplane was later transferred to Canada on 9th September 46. There and before it’s public exposition in 1964 it was repainted with this probably unreal splinter camo as well as with the unexpected “Wolf head” from 2./JG1! Painted on both side as it was usually done for 2./JG1 airplanes only.

Cheers, Olivier.

Sources:
(1): Luftwaffe at war 10, German jets 44-45, M.Griehl, Greenhill
(2): Luftwaffe Profiles Series No.16, He 162, M.Griehl, Schiffer
(3): War Prizes, P.Butler, Midland Counties Pub., p156

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

It's me again!

Stefan, could you please send me a scan of the colour pic. I'm very interested to see that.

Olivier, thank you, but I think we are talking about some different planes.

Your source 1 (Luftwaffe at War series) only shows Yellow 4, W.Nr 120067 (Page 68 ) at Leck just before handed over to the allied trops.
Source 2 (Flugzeug Profile) shows Yellow or White 4, W.Nr. 120097 1./JG 1 (Page 17) at Kassel after surrender.

Your source 3 is not in my collection. Maybe possible to get a scan of that pic?

Cheers, Simon

Scan
 

Hi, Simon,


if you send me your e-mail adress I will submit the scan you asked for.

My adress is vetteriek@foni.net.

Best regards

Stefan

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hehe!

Simon, both photos your are looking for (1) p68 & (2) p 17 are from the same "white4" but with different tails, even at Kassel White4 stay an A-1 and got the 1./JG1 diving eagle emblem on portside :)

If you want to see Yellow4, and i bet you want, you need to look to the third airplane in the row inside (1) p67 and (2) p31 (as i already told you it's the same photo inside both books). And you will see Yellow4 is an A-2 not an A-1 ;)

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Olivier,

as you wrote, W.Nr 120067 and the plane with the unpainted tail (my sources says 120097)are the same plane? Is that correct? It's nearly impossible to compare the camouflage because the quality of the pics in the books is not as good as the pics I have from the plane with the unpainted tail. I found a difference. :D Compare the wingtips. 120067 clearly shows another camo.

Cheers, Simon

PS: The plane with the unpainted tail is a He 162 A-2 with the MG 151/20.

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Indeed i really think they are the same one!

Like for the tail the one piece wing could be easily dismounted to allow transport by railway or by trucks. So the wings could easily be exchanged during rebuilt time...

Fuselage from your 2 He-162 is indeed the same. white4, 1./JG1 emblem on portside, dirty nose cone, black paint around the guns for 30mm guns so A-1, and very specific to this airplane there is like a bulge in front of this black gun paint like if the nose was not the original one. I dont remember to have seen this on another He162 than white4.

Note: the color photo from Replic is the same as the one from WarPrizes, and show yellow4 under British markings (note no black paint around the gun and so 20mm A-2)

And the question about splinter camo remain since it seems very possible but we dont have enough photos from upside to be sure. For example I have one photo showing same kinds of "loops" painting on the wing leading edge as it is sometimes visible on the wing tips.

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Simon!

Here you can clearly see how the rebuilt was quick done to make this He 162 some kind of gate entrance, when yellow6 and white3 also moved to Kassel stay without wings nor tails.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...nothiswing.jpg

On the other side for Jean-Claude Mermet, a French author, Wk.N.120097 is actually "red3".

I hope you have been conviced this time ;)

Note also that the official He 162 camouflage pattern is from 18 January 1945 according to M.Ullmann, but at Leck only no less than five different camouflage could be found... So splinter camo over upper wing surface look very possible even if the one from Ottawa is possibly unreal... Help from Ottawa Museum restoration team would be necessary on this point!

Cheers.

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Olivier,
really interesting to read your words. Are there reports about the transport of "White or Yellow4" to Kassel?

I'm not the He 162 expert, but I think the black colour around the cannons isn't a fact for MK 108. In the He 162 booklet X-planes of the Third Reich (page 72) is a series of the "White or Yellow4" with the unpainted tail, and there the MGs 151 are clear visible on both sides of the plane.

Very funny is the fact that I found a pic in the book showing a Yellow 7, also unpainted tail, and a W.Nr. 120067 painted on the wing!

I think the He 162 stuff is really complicated, because the allied trops mixed and overpainted all aircraftparts they found.

I will try to contact the museum in Canada. Maybe somebody of the restauration team can help me. Interesting are the pics I found here:

http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162.html
http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162photo.html
http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162photo1.html

Cheers, Simon

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

A note on 120076. This airframe has been repainted several times since the war. So what you are seeing, especially with the upper wing camo, is totally wrong. Now, as for the other 162 in the collection, 120086, this one still retains its original camouflage.

Unless otherwise, 120086 is the only Luftwaffe aircraft left in the world that still wears its original camouflage that was applied on the assembly line. :D

Stephen

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

The bf109 WNr:163824 in Australia still wears its original camouflage,too.

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Slightly off topic, but has anyone seen post capture photos of 120015 now in France? Looking for the original tactical number.

regards
Dave

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Stephen!

I contacted Miroslav Bily (Publisher of the MBI He 162 booklet) and he is the same opinion as you. The upper wing camo ist the work of some "artists" and not Luftwaffe camo. Do you know pics of the 120086?

DaveM2: I translated the restauration website, but the tactical number of 120015 is not named. Maybe they will find out during the restauration. I haven't seen a wartime pic of 120015.

Cheers, Simon

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Simon,

I do and many. Take a look at the following link of pics of 86

www.clubhyper.com/ reference/he162sf_1.htm

Stephen

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Stephen!

Impressive! Have you some colour pics of the wing?

Interesting is the camouflage colour of the fuselage. More green than brown.

On two pics the engine cover is visible. They look much darker than the green on the fuselage! Also wothy a mention is the heat protection on the upper side of the fuselage cone behind the engine. Never seen that before.

Your link doesn't work. Here is the correct one. http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/he162sf_1.htm

Cheers, Simon

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Is it my imagination or is the green of one wing panel a slightly different shade of green than the other?

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Well, in according with the factory camo scheme one wing is to be entirely painted in a single color and the other in another color. So it matches the official scheme, I guess. It´s interesting the dark area after the engine, looks a heat compound to prevent damage on fuselage.

It would be nice to have a complete walk around of this plane assembled prior any restoration. A pity the Komet also in Australia got wrong colors after the restoration since it was in nice shape (jugding by photos of it´s original wartime colors).

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

He 162 120015 had been painted 4 times by the French and probably "scoured" previous painting at least one time so there near no chance to find the original fuselage digit during restoration, but who knows... Cross fingers...

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

YEP !

In just published French mag "AFM", for Aviation Française Magazine, N°6, Philippe Couderchon tell us that 120015 was actually "yellow 21" :)

She was first thought to be "yellow1" since during her first restoration in 1976 they were only able to find Wk.Nr.120023 on the tailplane but as for "white4" it was not her original tailplane :D

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

He 162 Ebay photos :

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Foto...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Foto...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Volk...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Sala...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Volk...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.de/He162-He-162-Volk...QQcmdZViewItem

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Does he state the source of the info.....any photo?

regards
Dave

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Dave,

Philippe Couderchon was the man who direct the cokpit restoration from the French He 162 at "Le Bourget" Museum and who is now helping for her "skin" restoration.

Philippe was kind enough to give some replies to my question on aerostorie forum (a French speaking forum: http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforums/forumhist/ )

- He explained he was lured with some yellow paint between two panels but he is now pretty sure W.Nr. 120015 is actually "white 21".
- Further more in 1947 The French took off the German painting but luckily they kept some markings and especially the diving eagle emblem on both side of the fuselage. Cant wait to see some photos...
- He also said that some emblems had been painted by Germans after Leck surrender! Incredible no?

Cheers, Olivier

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Olivier

Thanks, I just recently found out through my friend Arnaud Mars ( Memorial Flight ) of Philippe's connection to the aircraft.I was hoping to tell them something they didn't already know!

regards
Dave

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

But is this so secret that you cant tell us? ...

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

???
What secret ? The information is in the magazine or in this thread....which doesn't meant to say the Memorial Flight people would have seen it, in which case I would have passed it on to them.

Dave

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Arg! Excuse Dave my English is not as good as i would like...

By the way, Simon, It looks you are right, not all black gun bay are for 30mm. It seems that He 162 with W.Nr in 310... are but those in 120... are not. So the mystery about the black gun bay remain...

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

I'd hazard a guess that there probably isn't a mystery behind the black painted gun troughs on the He.162. I think it's no different then the black that was painted on the fuselage of the Fw.190s to disguise the exhaust stain; and the same for the 109.

Then again...

Stephen

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

No problem..it is better than my French!

Dave

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

First I want to thank you for the great discussion. Here is my next problem!

I just finished my newest colour profile, you can imagine the plane. Yes it's a He 162 "Spatz". My problem are the colours of the markings. Was the background of the eagle emblem Yellow or Red. Was the number of the plane White or Yellow.

In "Luftwaffe Camouflage an Markings Vol 1" are some pics of the plane. Also a colour pic. Text says that it is a Yellow 4, but it looks more White than Yellow.

Here you find a preview of all 4 variants that could be possible. In colour and in bw to see how difficult it is to convert a BW-Pic into colour.

Please visit the link if the direct link to the pics doesn't work.

Cheers, Simon

http://www.free-webspace.biz/luftwaf...Schatz2005.htm

http://www.free-webspace.biz/luftwaf...mon-Schatz.jpg
http://www.free-webspace.biz/luftwaf...Simon-Scha.jpg

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Simon !

I m probably not the best to reply but here is my feelling:

It's very probably 4 white more than yellow. 1/ It loks white on the color photo 2/ The diving eagle emblem is for the 1st Staffel and 1st Staffel had white digits 3/ Yellow 4 is visible on one Leck's photo and it doesnt have any black paint around the guns as white 4 have.

And the diving eagle is very probably red 1/ the tone is really the same as the one from the arrow 2/ This same white and red emblem was said to be found over W.Nr. 120015 under restoration in France.

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi Menu,

Thank you, only wanted a confirmation for my suspicion. So my Profile of the 120067 is a White 4, flown by 1./JG 1, Eagle is red.

Cheers, Simon

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hello every body!

Philippe Couderchon come again after a long silent.

After my paper relating the story oh french He 162 in the french magazin AFM, I decaded to write the same paper for the english and german reader!
So you can see this article in Aeroplane monthly-April and May 2006, and in Flugzeug Classic -July and august 2006.

About the restoration of the wnr.120015, you can follow it on the web site at:
http://memorial.flight.free.fr/He162.html

At this time, the wings are now painting........in RLM71/RLM65.
See the photos just published two days ago!!

When the restoration will be finished, we will publish a book with many photos and informations!!

Best regards,

Philippe Couderchon

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Bonjour Philippe,

Nice to read you again!
I regularly follow the project progression.
I’d like to know when do you expected to finish the restoration?

Looking at the picture of the repainted wing on the web site, I was surprised to see the thin Balkenkreuz in the under surfaces. A well known picture (front) of the 120015, 21 white (yellow?) publish in different books lets show a bold black cross.
How did you determine the type of the marking? recovered during the restoration?

Thanks in advance and I’m very impatient to read the new publication about this extraordinary project (plane and restoration).

Salutations de Montréal

Pascal

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Hi all,

This restoration project is obviously a labour of love. I'm surprised that the wing markings (top) do not reflect the correct style that was used. Also, painting the wing RLM 71 when it is apparent that this aircraft along with 120076 and 120086 show a 'vivid' dark green colour upper surface. This 'different' shade of green is visible on the wing under the engine nacelle on all three aicraft. In the case of 120086 it was shown that the entire wing was this colour.
So, often the final touches detract from all the great work that was done....much like the wrong style roundel etc. on the CF-105 Avro Arrow replica and the '35' on the Me262 restoration.

Cheers,
John

Re: Heinkel He 162 upper wingcolour Mystery
 

Bonjour Pascal and all,

Thus by looking at the site of Memorial-Flight-Aassociation, you saw that the wings are entirely in dark green RLM70 (I wrote by error 71) and blue RLM65. These wooden wings come well from a subcontractor carpenter localised around the principal factory at Vienna –Mareinhe .
It is true that the principal aeronautical factories conformed to the new paintings required by the RLM, like the RLM81 and 82. But these large companies, by receiving their batches of new paintings, and to make economies, transferred their old paintings towards the small factories like carpenters..... which used them, even at the end of the war.
If you look at our site, you will find the photographs of two hoodings of the engine which are well in RLM81/82, therefore in conformity with the directive of camouflage of He 162, as my friend Ken Merrick in his last book tells it on the camouflages at “Classic books”. For our fuselage, it will be a surprise in the current of the year 2007!
This strange camouflage is, today, only avalable for our 120015, one of the first He 162 built at Marienhe.
For the 120076 and 120086, I hope the upper wings camouflage was painted in RLM82/81....the carpenter was perhaps different !
Also the air-entrance of 120086 she is in RLM02, like our 120015.
For me, the splinter camouflage on 120076 is Canadian, not German, same thing for the Chino’s 162.
Best regards from France,
Philippe