1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

I chanced upon some interesting original Battle of France (and later) photos of RAF losses today.

One shows a 504 Squadron Hurricane down on a French beach with German soldiers inspecting. It is intact and coded HE - T. It carries the 504 Sqn badge on the white of the fin flash and the 'T' is repeated in white on the cowling between the exhaust stack and spinner. It has the early pole-type aerial mast. There is no sign of damage and no visible serial number.

Any ideas?

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hi Andy,

Perhaps a hurricane of 'B' Flight of 263 Squadron?
Certainly the coding would suggest that.
However that doesn't account for the squadron badge.

Gerry

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Sorry....!!

Typo.

I meant 605. Its been a long day.

Could it be L2119, Fg Off Forbes, 27 May 1940?

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hi Andy

To the best of my knowledge 263 Sqn used the code 'HE' at this time, yet according to the ORB there is no mention of them operating over France during the first half of 1940.

Is it possible that one of 263's Hurricanes had been passed onto 605 Sqn and that it hadn't yet been repainted?

(Adendum: I don't think that this was possible either - 263 Squadron were in Norway during May 1940 http://www.epibreren.com/ww2/raf/263_squadron.html)

Any chance at us being able to have a 'squiz' at the photo please?

Kind regards.

Paul

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Some reference sources give HE as being codes worn by 605 Sqn during this period and the 605 Squadron emblem on the tail strip is unmistakably 605 Squadron. Thus, I am convinced that we are looking at a 605 Sqn machine in this instance. I think we can safely rule out 263 Squadron. This is on a sandy English Channel beach, without much doubt.

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Andy,

I hadn't realised that 605 squadron used HE as their squadron code.
I see now that they used it until September 39 when they changed to UP.
Gerry

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Thanks for the info. Andy.

Interesting that both squadrons were using the same code at the same time.

Paul

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

I think that happened with quite a few squadrons at one time or another; 92 and 616 come to mind with QJ.

I will try to scan and post a copy of this image in next few days.

Gerry - I think they must have used it a bit past September 1939 as evidenced by this photograph which I am certain is May 1940.

Andy

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Thanks for the offer of posting a scan of the photo Andy.

Paul

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Herwith the image of said photograph....

(I can send you a high-res image, Larry)

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hello Andy,
605 Squadron losses that may help.
25th April 1940
L2013 collided with N2358.
22nd May 1940
N2349 - F/O. Austin - Wounded.
L2058 - Sgt. Moffatt - Killed.
L2120 - F/O. Wright - Killed.
P3575 - P/O. Current - Returned.
23rd May 1940
L2121 - F/Lt. Leeson - POW.
26th May 1940
N2346 - P/O. Muirhead - Safe.
27th May 1940
L2119 - F/O. Forbes - POW.
P3423 - S/Ldr. Perry - Killed.
P3581 - F/O. Danielson - Killed.
31st May 1940
L2117 - Crashed UK.

Alex

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

My money is on L2121 or L2119.

The metal DH blades perhaps point to an 'L' series Hurricane, and assuming that the pilot was safe/POW is reasonable I think.

Perhaps Peter Cornwell or Larry Hickey might want to have a stab at it?

Whatever, the markings are interesting.

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

See the following thread on Britmodeller
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/i...c=234919965&hl=
This shows the aircraft of P/O W.J.Glowacki with the same tail marking.

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hello Graham,

Thank you for the very interesting link, which contained photo's of the wounded Polish pilot standing before a wrecked Hurricane.

The marking shown on the aircraft's Fin is indeed very like that shown in Andy's post on this Forum.

But I would suggest that it is of the same Squadron but not the same Hurricane shown in both pictures.

My reason being that the picture on this Forum shows quite a large area of "ground" at the bottom of the artwork, while that on the other forum shows a very fine line of "ground" base to the artwork.

Andy also put his date as May ( I forget why) while the other was September.

Alex

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hi Alex,

I don't think anybody's suggesting that they are the same aircraft. I certainly wasn't in my posts on Britmodeller. The pic of the 605 Sqn Hurri on the beach in France helped me ID the squadron and from there it was pretty easy to identify the pilot.

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hello
thank you for this post and pictures;
im half german, and not every german was a nazi..and the luftwaffe were a nice guys.who treated our and polish pilots very well thu the whole war..the waffen ss .i heard helped many polish troops and airmen..UssR too..but the war in the east was differn't to the west..
but the SS- forget it..
.the picture looks like he was tired.. but the germans did photo other wounded pilots on capture...and survived the war..Polish too.
very nice but sad end to a brave pilot..

sharon..

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

The Bear & Ragged Staff emblem appeared on the fin flash of squadron aircraft of the period.

As Alex, Graham etc have pointed out this is not the same aircraft!

It would be good to know which incident is depicted in my photograph, although I rather suspect that solving it 100% is going to be a challenge.

Always good to see a 'new' photograph - and this one showing the squadron codes for this period, the individual aircraft letter repeated on the cowling and the squadron emblem on the tail.

All we need now is confirmation of pilot and aircraft.....!

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hello.

Just few words to say the 263 Sqn. was reformed with a flight of 605 Sqn "County of Warwick.

The both Squadron kept the same Code HE ( of 605 sqn.)

When 263 Sqn. embarked with 261 sqn. for Norway it was with the Gladiators of 605 Sqn.

When 605 Sqn go down in 11 Group, it was painted on the fin of their Hurricanes the crest of the Unit: a bear supporting a ragged staff.

The idea came from S/L Mc Kellar DSO DFC & bar who was previously Flight Co. in this unit and after his S/L.

So the photo show a Hurricane HE.T of 605 Sqn. and was taken before november 40 time where the 605 Sqn. change their Hurricane I in Hurricane IIa

About Glowacki he was shot down in Hurricane HE.P P3832 by a pilot of 3./JG 51 Oblt. Michael Sonner. He died after an allergic reaction to anti tetanus injection.

Have a nice day.

Ps: A serie of photographs exist in BA or Ecpa showing Glowacki with I didnt remember well with Ihlefeld or Joppien...

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

There is at least one picture of a 607 Sq Hurricane with its winged lion on the white of the fin flash. I wonder just how common this was with RAuxAF units, as there seems to be at least three examples (the well-known Airacobras being the third).

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hi
I suppose this means the photo I have packed away of a HE coded hurricane needs to be rechecked,as it may not be 263 Sqn ...
cheers
Jerry

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hi Andy

Interesting picture. That Hurri looks in remarkably good condition - no damage to the upper prop tip; and from its tilted-forward angle perhaps the belly scoop wasn't even severely crushed as you'd expect. Makes me wonder if it could even have made a wheels-down landing on the sand?

Looking forward to finding out more as the details piece together bit by bit.

Ian

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

The 601 Squadron Hurricanes of the early 1940 period had their red flying sword emblem under the chin and behind the prop spinner back-plate. Later in 1940 they, too, reverted to the squadron emblem on the white of the fin flash.

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Andy,

You asked for me to comment. I've got a large DB on a/c force-landed on French Beaches during 1940, but this one is new to me. Peter Cornwell is upgrading our entire EoE DB for May, 1940, as I write this, and I'm sure will give this his best shot. I don't have anything to add to the identification on this one.

Regards,

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Yes please! And thank you in advance.
A very nice shot. It looks like the pilot made wheels down landing.
Paul

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Thanks Larry.

I am already talking to Peter about this and he has a high-res copy which I am, of course, happy for him to share with you.

An interesting 'photo - in many respects!

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Have just found a letter which Pat Leeson sent me back in 1997, he was the Pilot of L2121.
He States
' I was flying as No 2 to Gerry Edge & shortly after reaching the coast of France, we ran into thick cloud & parted company fearing a collision. I then went down to ground level & ran straight into ground flak. The radiator was hit & 109's appeared so decided to land on my belly & was wounded when first flattening out'

So i believe to photo is not L2121 but more likely L2119 flown by N.Forbes.

Hope this is of Interest & help.
Iain

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Iain

Thats interesting! Many thanks.

However, why does this rule out L2121 do you think? Is it because he made no mention of landing on a beach?

Presumably both made a forced landing, and both POW.

Just a little unclear as to why you favour Forbes over Leeson. But it might just be me!!

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hi Andy

My reasoning is only that he stated he bellylanded as opposed to a force landing.
However you are quite correct not a definite conclusion it could be just a choice of wording.
He came down near St Pol but i have no idea where this is in relation to the coast.
Also records mention as does the letter that Leeson was wounded, there appears to be no mention of Forbes being hurt and as there seems to be little visible damage to the aircraft.
However there could possibly be damage on the other side, not concrete evidence just my thoughts.
Iain

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

St.Pol Sur Mer is adjacent to Dunkirk (indeed, today, the two pretty much merge into into one urban sprawl). This, perhaps, suggests that Pat Leeson's aircraft is a contender for this photo?

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Indeed, although I think there are one or two other places called St Pol that could also be possible although the coastal location sounds good to me.

I am not sure I understand your rationale,Iain. Isn't a 'belly landing' exactly what we are looking at in this photograph?

I do agree, though, that there is little visible damage to point to pilot being wounded - but that could have resulted from no more than one, or two, holes that might well be invisible in a photo like this.

I think the jury is still out!

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Other Saint Pols include:

Saint Pol-sur-Ternoise - roughly 60 miles south of Dunkirk and 20 miles west of Arras
Saint Pol-de-Leon - roughly 30 miles northeast of Brest

These may not be the only Saint Pols in France but they were the only ones GoogleMaps came up with. I think we can discount Saint Pol-de-Leon because it's well south of fighting that took place in May 1940 (Plymouth is the closest part of England to Saint Pol-de-Leon).

So we have a photo of a 605 Sqn Hurricane that force-landed on a beach, and an account of a 605 Sqn pilot who force-landed near "St.Pol" for which there are 2 options, one near Dunkirk and the second inland and further south. I still don't think we have a definitive answer...unless we can account for all other 605 Sqn losses during the period.

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

According to "Twelve Days in May", on 22 May 40 605 Sqn lost 2 Hurricanes in engagements with Me109s followed by a further 2 Hurricanes hit by return fire from 3 He111s in the vicinity of Arras, one pilot being killed and the other force-landed.

"Air Battle Dunkirk" provides details of the following 605 Sqn losses:

26 May - P/O Muirhead baled out (so HE-T is clearly not his aircraft).
27 May - F/O Forbes seen to go down near Poperinghe which is southeast of Dunkirk and thus cannot be the "Hurri on a beach" in the original pic. Later that same day, S/L Perry and P/O Danielson were lost (although locations were not identified).

On 28 May, 605 Sqn was withdrawn to Drem to regroup (they'd lost 6 pilots killed, one taken prisoner and one (Muirhead) missing since joining the fray a week earlier).


Dunno whether any of this helps very much...

KR
Mark

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Hello,
Since my post (No: 11) I have followed this story with great interest.
From what Mark has in his post (No:32) above.
He notes that -
605 Sqdn lost :
6 pilots killed.
1 POW.
1 MIA.
This from the 28th May '40 from the week earlier when it joined the fray.
However, as can be seen in my post(No: 11) I found only
4 Killed
and
2 POW
I also found perhaps an error with the CWGC date given for the death of Danielsen, which is given as the 17th May, this is at odds with the 27th and P3581. Perhaps someone can get this comfirmed and/or corrected ??
There were indeed 5 killed at least, I missed one.
P/O. A. S. Dini,(ex 607 Sqdn) 31st May 1940 I beleive him to have been in L2117 which force landed north of Folkstone, UK.
And I believe that the MIA refered to would have been Muirhead who baled, tried to return by ship, got sunk and rescued safe.
Also to round off.
23th May, Leeson -POW - L2121
27th May, Forbes - POW - L2119
but also
25th May, F/O. G.R. Edge - Safe - N2557 - Cat B Damage.

Other earlier losses were:
AC2. H.J. Taylor on the 1st April 40
and
F/O. R. M. Mainland killed on the 25th April 40 ( was he in L2013 or N2358 ?).
Next loss was 24th June 40 - L2115.

All for now
Alex

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Another (the same?) photograph of Hurricane HE-T has appeared on ebay:
https://www.ebay.at/itm/186292669612
Looking through this old thread, the general consensus was that it was likely to be either L2119 or L2121.
Interestingly, a look at ASN shows that codes have been allocated to these aircraft somewhere along the line:
L2119 UP-Z: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/228325
L2121 UP-T: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/228038
The reference to UP- codes is perhaps understandable, but I wonder where the individual codes came from? No codes are listed in the ORB.
Another problem is that neither of the "likely crash locations" is anywhere near the coast...

Can anyone add any more after all this time?

Re: 1940 Hurricane loss photograph - France
 

Thank you Andy for the update, most welcome