Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Hello,

Please see

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160776325019...ht_32374wt_883

This photo album, apparently belonging to an Uffz pilot in 3./KG55, shows two images of He111Ps from the Polish Campaign with a strange, elongated figure in a top hat, evening dress and carrying an umbrella (two versions), which I've seen somewhere else before. Does anyone know if there are other images of this strange figure that are on other He111s of this unit? Since there are two slightly different variations on the same theme, could this be either a Schwarm or incipient Staffel insignia?

Anybody know anything more about this, or have any possible info on who the Uffz pilot is that owned this album? One of these a/c will make a great color profile.

Regards,

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Thanks, this is a fascinating album which I will spend some time looking over. My initial observations on the umbrella emblem is that this was a common theme with KG 55. The attached photo is from He 111P G1+HP WNr.1992, of Gerhard Pulver 6./KG 55. It seems to be related to the BoB/Blitz, so later than the other photos. It is not the same as those in the album, but suggests that the umbrella carrying gentleman (probably Chamberlain) was used generally with KG 55, rather than being a staffel or personal emblem.



Ian

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Ian,

I owe you a detailed response to the email you sent a few days ago. Will get to that shortly. I'm familiar with the images of G1+HP, which are incorrectly identified in the Walter Waiss KG27 books as being KG27, and in the Hall/Quinlan KG55 book as being related to the Battle of Britain. In fact, they are 6./KG55 and date back to the Polish Campaign and Phoney War period. Different He111s carrying the code G1+HP were shot down during both the WC (FC) and the BoB, and this one pre-dates both of them.

Your idea that cartoon characters carrying an umbrella were common in KG55 (and other units) is accurate, and they were usually a send up on Chamberlain. However, I'm not sure if that is the case with these figures on the 3./KG55 He111 rudders during the PC. They may be, but there also may be a character in German culture or literature from the time that this represents. Just want to explore that option. I also want to see if we can turn up any other images of this figure, or variations thereof, in the published photos out there. Somewhere I've seen this imagery before, but I can't put my finger on it at the moment.

Regards,

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

I have finished looking through the album. There are no further remarks at present on the rudder art or the pilot. The only comments are that the 3./KG 55 aircraft are a mixture of He 111P-2 and P-4 aircraft. Either side of these there are several He 111B-1 aircraft and a Ju 52/3m. These appear to belong to II and III./KG 257 in 1938. There is no direct link between KG 257 and KG 55, so our pilot must have transferred between them.


Ian

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Interesting that the records I have list WNr. 2145 as a P-2 damaged in 1941, then repaired but then listed as a P-5 and 70% damaged with a training unit later.

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Hi John

The He111P-5 was a dual-control version of the P-2 for training purposes. They were supposed to be new builds, but it would not seem impossible that a P-2 was simply converted to the dual control format. Do you have further details on the 1941 crash (Vbkz etc)?

Cheers
Ian

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Ian, here's what I have:

He 111P-2, 2145, n.n., 7./KG 55, 23-Jun-41, Enemy fire., Bo WIA., 22-Jun per Goss., Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Slipcze, 40%, F, Bo Gefr. Karl Kappeler

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

I have a number if photos from kaufhold of 3/KG 55- we will be in touch when I get back from France in 10 days time

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Hi John, thanks for the information on 2145. I wonder whether there is evidence that this aircraft had previously been with 3./KG 55, or whether it was also 7./KG 55 in 1939; in which case it is more evidence that our umbrella carrying gentleman is not just a 3./KG 55 figure?


Ian

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Ian, John & Chris,

Thanx for your comments. John, now we know what happened to the a/c, which I hope to use as a color profile. So this will allow us to put a history with it.

Chris, your comment sounds exciting. Will await your return from France.

In the meantime, I know that I've seen at least one other published photo of that strange, elongated man on the tail of a He111. Does anyone else remember seeing this artwork? It may have been 20-40 years ago, but that character is familiar to me. Could it have ben in one of the Karl Ries books?

As always, help from all of you is greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Larry

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Hi Larry, also Ian and John.
I have W.Nr 2145 as G1+CL 3/KG55 forced landing nr Langemark with damage from flak, during sortie to attack roads west of Ypres 10.45am on the 27.5.40. Uffz Kaufhold as Chris mentions in his post, was part of this crew.

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Steve,

You've provided me with a very important clue that I want to follow up on. It sounds like Chris Goss also has further photos from Uffz Kaufhold's collection, which perhaps is even the collection being sold on eBay. Where did you get the info that G1+CL was W.Nr. 2145? We presently don't carry it with a W.Nr. in the EoE Luft Loss DB:

"May 27, 1940: 3./KG55 Heinkel He111P-2. Forced-landed near Langemark starboard engine damaged by AA fire during sortie to attack roads between Ypres and Dunkirk 10.45 a.m. BO Oberfw Erich Botzki, FF Fw Heinrich Schmidt, BF Uffz Hans Kaufhold, BM Uffz Fritz Wicklein, and BS Gefr Walter Schwinn all captured unhurt – later released. Aircraft G1+CL 100% write-off."

For it to have been lost with 7 Staffel in 1941, it must have been recovered, repaired and put back into service. In searching the EoE Photo DB, I don't find anything I can ID as a photo of this a/c FL. None appears with that loss in Peter Cornwell's TBoFrT&N. Have photos appeared on eBay or been published before of this a/c FL? I'm very curious whether W.Nr. 2145 still carried that insignia when it FL on May 27th, or if this was one of the temporary markings applied in 1939, and later washed off or painted over. Important info for profiling purposes. Perhaps if it still was on the a/c when it FL, I've seen a photo of it on eBay with this on the tail, but didn't realize the connection with KG55.

The plot thickens, as they say.

Thanx for taking the time to help

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Hi Larry, great to be able to add any information where possible.

You may see from the link below that i looked at this quite closely at the time. Forum member and Heinkel111 expert Dave Ransome provided the clue to W.Nr2145 identity on these very pages!
Any further information would be most welcome from anybody else.


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images...subscribed.gif He 111 Wk Nr 2149 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 2)

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Steve,

Thanks for the reference back to the 2007 TOCH posts. Now we'll have to see if Peter Cornwell will pick up in our DB Dave Ransom's info on the 27.05.40 FL being W.Nr.2145. Now the question is, where did Dave get his info correlating W.Nr.2145 with the code G1+CL and the FL during May, 1940. He never clarified that in his posts.

Regards,

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Steve, we were talking about one of the planes featured in this album last year!
http://cdn01.trixum.de/upload2/33800...2dc6d8dd09.jpg
This is W.Nr.2149 G1+JL, of which the above photo together with another two were all published in 'Wings of the Black Cross 6'.

Best regs,
Maciej

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Thanks Steve for this additional information. It seems quite incredible that an aircraft suffered three losses of 100%, 40% and 70% and was each occasion repaired and then converted to end its day’s as a trainer. All we need is confirmation of the codes to complete the story.


Cheers
Ian

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Hello Maciej,

Tried to find my copy of "Wings of the Black Cross 6," but it isn't on the shelf where it should be. Would someone who owns another copy of this Jerry Crandall publication look and see what photos of these 3./KG55 aircraft are in there and if they are the same images as in the photo album that I started this post about? If they're the same, then I don't need to pursue this further. If they're not, I've got to find my missing copy of the publication. THis may well be where I remember seeing images of this artwork.

Thanx,

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Hello Larry,
The book includes only one photo from the ebay album, which I've pointed in my previous post, and further two of the same plane. The Heinkel is captioned as G1+JU, but in my opinion the last letter of the code can't be U -see the scan of the photo in the ebay album. On another photo of this machine published in the book the W.Nr.2149 is visible on the fin, but the last code letter is obscured by the people standing in front of the plane.
No other 3./KG 55 aircraft are pictured in the book.

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Maciej,

I agree that W.Nr. 2149 is G1+JL and any attribution as G1+JU is certainly wrong. I've now seen a photo of the artwork being applied to the tail of this a/c which someone else sent me directly. If there are two additional photos of G1+JL in the publication, I'll have to find my copy to see what they show.

Thanx so much for following up on this for me.

Regards,

Re: Possible Staffel or Schwarm insignia on rudders of some 3./KG55 He111Ps during the Polish Campaign?
 

Hi Larry, glad to to be able to kick start this thread into motion!
I sincerley hope you can confirm the correlation of G1+CL with the W.Nr 2145 with either Peter Cornwell or Dave Ransome. Also ties in G1+JL also seen in the album, and confirmation of that W.Nr too.

Hi Maciej, yes i remember well our chats and suspicions of W.Nr 2149 being G1+JL and not G1+JU as described in " Wings of the Black Cross"
Great to see these images again brought to us by Larry.
Hope your well Maciej?

Best regs,
Steve.