WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Hello all,

can I ask favor you for help, please?

What is your opinions and experiences with WaST and verity of their files?
They sent me infos about crashed airplanes and in the both cases are places of accidents different from original files from war´s years (Quartermaster)... (I think WaST have files rewrote from years after the war...)

Is there exist any other archive?


Many thansk for all Marian

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Some things you need to know, if you don't already.

The main documents held by the WASt are the 'Namentliche Verlustmeldungen', which were reports filed at unit level of unit members killed or wounded. As 1940 progressed, these returns contained more information than previously submitted. Occasionally, there would be a supplementary report about the action concerned. They were used to notify next of kin, so were usually quite accurate.

The Quartermaster's Returns, on the other hand, while also submitted from unit level, contain many inaccuracies, particularly spelling mistakes of crew members names. The main purpose of the these returns was for aircraft replacement, so crew names were secondary. Many members on this forum have spent a lot longer going through the Quartermaster's Returns, so they may be able to confirm or deny my point about them.

The 'Nam Ver' and 'Quartermaster's Returns' are the main sources for damage/loss returns on aircraft, and the best scenario is that the information be considered on both concerning the same incident, in order to try to be as accurate as possible. For crew names, I would definitely go with the 'Nam Ver' before the other source.

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Just to support what John has said, the NVMs are probably more reliable for personal names since they also have a next of kin name and address in the right hand column. QMG returns aren't always too hot on spelling pace names either, especially if they aren't German ones. In the end though, any document can have mistakes in it, I recently had a file out out the National Archives and neatly stencilled on the front cover is the volume number and the title "SUMMERIES" [sic].

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Hv they, these NVM, not restricted access now ??

Rémi

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

To add a little....if people get a letter from the WASt with information on crashes this info is not only coming from the NVM but also from data that has been learned since the end of the war. For instance the NVM says "Raum Lingen/Emsland" as location of the loss. The letter received might say something like "1 Km south of Bawinkel" ....

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

The QM report will often be filled shortly after the loss (days or weeks after it) and will often lack accuracy about the crashplace if the loss was over enemy territory. For many East Front losses, the "crashplace" in QM files will be only the target of the file, the actual crash may have occured hundred of km away.

On the other hand the NVM will include all known data about the fate of the crew, and may include data collected after the war, and so from enemy side. It might also include data sent during the war by the Red Cross, and listing the place of burial for killed airmen, etc...

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Rémi,

Access to the NVMs has been restricted for some years past under strict Federal data protection laws. Prior to this, photo-copies of the original documents (with certain sensitive information obscured) could be purchased from the WASt.

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

To provide an example of what Laurent said, the Nam Ver for Uffz. Rolf Kahl, Bordfunker in the Gruppenstab of Erprobungsgruppe 210 shows the following additional handwritten entries:
verletzt
verw in engl gef LP 49 712
zurück 30.10.43

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Hello all specialists,
many thanks for all your opinions. All are very important for me, really. My reason for this topic is reasonable. I want to know truth about two places crashed airplanes. For example I have from WASt following:

Datum 17.6.1941 gegen 19 Uhr
Ort Westsite des Kupferberges bei Neustadt a. d. Tafelfichte Krs. Friedland (Isergebirge)
Ursache Unfall
Flugzeugtyp He 111 P2 A1 MS Werk-Nr. 2127
Einheit Stabstaffel KG 53
Besatzung
Abe Hans
Schormann Adolf
Janissen Peter
Schumacher Fritz


.................................................. ................


Datum 17.6. 1941
Ort Westsite des Kupferberges bei Neustadt a. d. Tafelfichte Krs. Friedland (Isergebirge)
Ursache Unfall
Flugzeugtyp Nicht verzeichnet
Einheit 11. Staffel KG 53
Besatzung Muller Hayo
.................................................. ..................................

What does it mean? Two airplanes crashed at the same place?

And second option for it?


From Gen. Qu. 6 Abt. microfilm roll 3, vol 5. Foreman 1941- Theturning point, II, p.331

the same date, the same names, specifiations of rank, the same airplane but place Reichenburg bei Dresden...

.................................................. ............................



The second accident...

From WASt:

Datum 23.12. 1942
Ort Rudolfsthal Krs. Hohenstadt March / Sudeten
Ursache Unfall
Flugzeugtyp Nicht verzeichnet
Einheit 2. Staffel Erganzungs- Fernauflkl. Gruppe
Besatzung Walendowski Siegfried



from Gen. Qu. (more infos i haven´t here now)

Ju 88 D- 2 W.Nr. 0401, 2. (F)/Erg. F.A. Gr. F2+AK, missing 23.Dec. 1942 with crew, cause unknown, location unknown. Lw. Bfh. Mitte / Deutschland
Ltn. Siegfried Walendowski (B), Gefr. Werner Redwanz (Ff), Gefr. Hasso Friedrich (Bf), Gefr. Anton Drey (Bs), Isergebirge (?)






WHERE IS TRUTH ???

Many thanks if you know more than I found with help with help from some gentlemens here on TOCH.

Regards Tolesa

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Matti had previously supplied information for this loss, Ltn. Muller was the pilot of this machine and apparently from 11./KG 53.

He 111P-2, 2127, Müller, Ltn. Hayo, , St.St., Stab, KG 53, , A1+MS, , , 17-Jun-41, Crew killed in crash due to accidently striking the ground., , Lfl.2/Deutschland, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, II, p.331; Salonen via TOCH on 19-Jan-12, , Westseite des Kupferberges bei Neustadt, 100%, H, B Uffz. Peter Janissen, Bf Fw. Hans Abe, Fw. Adolf Schormann & Uffz. Fritz Schumacher, 19.00,

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Tolesa,

I think what you have for the 17.6.41 incident is the WASt separating the crew according to their unit. That is, Muller from 11. Staffel, KG 53, and the rest from the Stabstaffel, KG 53. Single incident.

For the 23.12.42 incident, you have the WASt only giving you the bare information from the Nam Ver, from what I can see, about one individual only, it being the name of the only officer involved. To me, this: 'Flugzeugtyp Nicht verzeichnet' points to no aircraft type being recorded on the Nam Ver. But bear in mind what others have said about trying to get full information out of WASt nowadays - full co-operation is a thing of the past.

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

For Jim P.
Hello Jim,
Thanks for your words and time form me.
I asked Mr. Salonen but he gave me Wast as source of his infos where is like place of this accident of He 111 ...,, Isergebirge- Sudeten,,...

Mr. G.R. Morrison from USA wrote me the second source from ,,Quartermaster,, and in it place of crashed plane is ,,Reichenburg bei Dresden- Germany,,. (13.1. 2012 in ,, HE W.N. 2127,,)

The whole accident is still mystery for me....

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

for John Wasco-
many thanks for your opinion... Wast sent me infos about five planes but only at one of them they have type of plane... :( It is very strange...
Regards Tolesa

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Maybe GQM's Reichenberg (not Reichenburg) is not bei Dresden but the present Liberec. Isergebirge is just a few km northeast from that. In that case there would be no discrepancy. Sometimes it is difficult to find war-time place names in modern maps. If you look at Google map, you cannot find either Reichenberg or Isengebirge. They can be found only in maps printed befor 1945, I think. Please remember, that during WW 2, there were at least seven Reichenbergs in Germany.

Matti

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Hi Tolesa,

Except for the 15th Kroatenstaffel, KG53 only flew the He111 Bomber.

Regards, Thomas

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Heinz Kiehl loss list of KG53 confirms the above information from WASt.

Would the fuselage code (A1+MS) not sugggest that the He111 itself, of this crash, was part of the 8th Staffel?

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Hello all,
many thanks for all your contributions.
Is possible to find at any registry datas about squadrons ? For example about particular airplane W.Nr. 2127 - operate history, files about reparations and or reports trom crew.... etc. ???
Many thanks for hints.
Tolesa

Re: WaST Berlin X crews losses
 

Matti, I will try find old maps.