Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Found on a Fairey Battle shot down in 1940 this Transmitter receiver type TR9D Ref n° 10A/104870 (serial n° 6223)

Does anyone has more informations and photographies about that item?

Thank you very much...

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Arnaud

This is the standard wirelesss transmitter/reciever in use in RAF aircraft of this period.

Not sure what else you need to know?

The TR9D also fitted in the Hurricane, Spitfire, Defiant etc. I think they also went into bomber aircraft of the period. Not sure, but think they were TR9G...I'd have to check, as my memory is probably faulty.

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Thank you Andy,

In fact I have just half of it and some empty boxes! Transmitter receiver is a interesting item. I'm looking for some photographs inside and outside... The one I have come from a Fairey Battle shot down on May 14th 1940 and is a "TR9D"...

A technical book would be amazing...

Bye

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Arnaud

You are more likely to get details or copies of the technical books or AP's (Air Publications) here:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/index.php

Meanwhile, the TR9D is listed in AP1186 as being from single seater aircraft. (Transmitter: the 10D/10472 and reciever: the 10D/10471) The TR9D itself should be 10D/10470. It should not be 10A. If it is 10A, then I can only think this to be a variation of the 10D which (might!) be related to the Battle, perhaps?

For multi-seat aircraft (I would have thought thats the Battle, too?) it would have been the TR9F with the R1139 and T1138.

Night Fighters: TR9G
Bombers: TR9H
Coastal: TR9J
Gliders etc: TR9K

Hope this helps a little?

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Arnaud,
This site has pictures of what the transmitter and receiver should look like:
http://www.binbrook.demon.co.uk/html/Fairey_Battle.html
Note that they are designated: R1082 and T1083.

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Hi Arnaud,

It is quite surprising you found a TR9D in a Battle!
By early 1940 there were essentially the following radio sets in RAF aircraft:

• TRF (R1082 + T1083) used in all light and medium bombers (=all RAF bombers including the Battle). Operated in the 111kHz to 15 MHz bands.
• TR9D (R1120 + T1119) which was used in early Hurricane and Spitfire fighters. Operated at 4.3-6.6 MHz. Plus a TR9J version used by Coastal Command.
• TR1133 (R1137 + T1136) introduced end 1939 for Hurricane & Spitfire fighters. Operated 100-120 MHz.

The web site forwarded by Mark shows the correct R1082/T1083 as used in Battles. The only explanation for a TR9D inside a Battle is that creative ground crew on a mixed Hurricane-Battle airfield mounted a Hurricane radio inside a Battle. Note that performance of all these radio sets was bad, only in June a much improved rasdio was introduced.

Regards, Pieter

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

As Pieter says, and as I aluded to, I am surprised you have found a TR9D in a Fairey Battle.

The other odd thing is the 10A/104870 number (I think that should be 10D, perhaps?) Are you sure it is not 10470 - no 8 between the 4 and 7.

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

I dip my toe in this with trepidation but, after the introduction of VHF by the RAF, Army Co-operation aircraft used the TR9 to communicate with the Army? Might this give a clue?

Steve

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Thank you to all,

I could just confirm you that this TR9D 10A/10470 n° 6223 was found on a Fairey Battle shot down on May 14th 1940 (all details in my next book "Le piège de Sedan"): not one doubt Merlin Engine, radiator and serial number found on this crash site.

Remarks from Steve are very interesting...

Bye

Arnaud

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Andy wrote :
"The other odd thing is the 10A/104870 number (I think that should be 10D, perhaps?) Are you sure it is not 10470 - no 8 between the 4 and 7."

Andy, you are half right:
This is indeed a ref No. 10A/10470 : I am very impressed about your knowledge...

If anyone have any explanation about that TR9D found in a Battle like Steve...

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

There is still something odd about the numbering.
TR9D should be 10D/10470, see here:
http://home.btconnect.com/gmb/airequip.htm
10D stands for Radio Receivers andTransmitters
10A stands for Miscellaneous Radio Equipment
See here:
http://aircraft-cockpits.com/ww2rafrefno.htm

If the one you found is designated 10A/10470, could it be a modified TR9D rather than a standard one?

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Here are some photos of this Transmitter/Receiver Type TR9D 10A/10470: not very nice but that a/c was shot down by Bf109 70 years ago!

The number was read on the label on the big box: you could see it on photo "075bis". Photo 58148 is probably the same type of Transmitter/receiver (not broken).

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

So, the 10A label is on the grey box? That makes a bit more sense. But I am not sure that the remains of the radio you have is a TR9D...the TR9F, G etc all look pretty much the same externally. In other words, the damaged one was (once!) very much like the one on the right in the box - except they would have had different stores reference and type numbers.

However, I think I might be missing something in my understanding of your explanation!

Are we SURE the damaged radio is TR9D....and are we SURE that it came from a Battle? If it is a TR9D that seems a bit unusual.

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

The "Introduction" in Volume 1 of the Pilots Notes (if anyone has a set) for the Battle covering the year should confirm standard Wireless fitment.

My November 1940 Volume I, for a Whitley V gives ... General Purpose (G.P.) T.1083 transmitter and R.1082 receiver. The Transmitter-receiver in a Whitley was a T.R.9.F. with a separate amplifier mounted underneath the Wireless Ops table.

Hopefully someone will have a 1939/40 Set for a Battle?

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Here you will find photos of a TR9D in post #6:
http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=7136
The box is labeled Transmitter Unit Type T1098 10A/9216 serial number 924

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Hello,

The label comes from the grey big box which explains (I guess) why it is a 10A and not a 10D.
We could read on this label exactly this, no more no less:
"Transmitter receiver type TR9D
Ref. n° 10A/10470
AM.
Serial n° 6223"

This grey box and all pieces come from the same crash site: a Fairey Battle. We found the complete Merlin, complete radiator and the serial number of that Fairey Battle.
My question: "What was the type of transmitter receiver on that Battle? The label on the grey big box says TR9D. Is it right?

For Mark,

There is another piece from the same Battle. You could read on it with difficulties:
"Trans T1083
OII MO.. RANGED...
....00-136 KC/S....
N° 10A/...72
A..............."
"." means surface very damaged, unreadable.

I hope it helps... If you have any commet...

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Here you will find the circuit diagrams for both the tramsmitter and the receiver:
http://www.tuberadio.com/robinson/Information/TR9D/

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Arnaud,
T1083 is the correct transmitter for a Battle. See here:
http://www.binbrook.demon.co.uk/html/Fairey_Battle.html

It seems it was carrying both types of transmitter which would tie in with the ground support suggestion.

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Arnaud

The usual wireless equipment on a Battle I was an R.1082 receiver and T.1083 transmitter. This agrees with your "Trans T1083" findings and Pieter's post.

Regarding the T1083 being used with the R1082, see http://www.duxfordradiosociety.org/r...082/r1082.html

Regarding a T.R. 9D, this was a R/T (radio telephony) set, with a very short range or distance, to speak with the ground or other adjacent aircraft.

If your Battle had a T.R. 9D as well, then he had both (W/T & R/T), as MarkRS has pointed out.

Most RAF fighters still had the T.R. 9D R/T during the Battle of Britain in August 1940 (see Andy's postings), whilst some had got a later Very High Frequency (V.H.F.) R/T set.

I have read somewhere that some Battle aircraft were used in Wireless training.

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Thank you very much,

I will read soon all documents mentioned in this thread as transmitter and receiver are new to me. This is very interesting...

But I have just one last question: why Andy and Pieter were surprised that a TR9D was used in a Battle? That Battle was shot down during the mission on pontoon bridges at Sedan on May 14th 1940. French troops were close to targets.

Bye

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Arnaud

The T.1083 transmitter and R.1082 receiver was the General Purpose (G.P.) W/T (Wireless Telegraphy) set-up and like the 1940 Whitley V which also used this G.P. wireless combination, bomber aircraft usually had a T.R.9F with the above (although I understand that there was more than one combination). The aircraft would also use its R.1082 receiver (with a 'sense unit') to get D/F bearings from known wireless stations and beacon locations, for navigation purposes and homing.

The T.R.9F could be used in addition to the G.P. equipment and also linked via an amplifier (A.1134) to the G.P wireless. The T.R.9F was similar in circuit (to the 9D), but the T.R.9F gave the bomber a "special" second channel for communication.

The actual T.R.9D and T.R.9F had a similar circuit layout.

I have the R.1082 (3.75Mb pdf doc) and T.1083 (6Mb pdf doc) as two pre WW 2 Air Ministry A.P. 1186 docs (they can be found online free of charge at
T1083 - BAMA - edebris.com (or Googling this bama.edebris.com/manuals/britmil/t1083 ) click the "T1083.pdf (5 MB)" link only
and
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/com...nual-8701.html (log in and click the pdf conversion)

Both go into a little more detail as to what can and cannot operate, when certain aspects of the wireless are in operation, circuit diagrams, switching arrangements, additional equipment, photographs and A.M. part numbers etc.

I'm going to really read it all up thoroughly too.

Don't forget the 5 pages of Chapter 10 on the "Transmitters-Receivers T.R.9D and T.R.9F" at http://www.tuberadio.com/robinson/Information/TR9D/ (link given in a previous post by MarkRS to 5 page links), which you can click on to enlarge and then print off each page (by adjusting on your pc 'print preview' menu zoom %).

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Arnaud, all,

Trying to reduce the confusion a bit, let me again summarize the different radio sets as used by the RAF by May 1940.

• The basic set for all bombers was the TRF General Purose radio, consisting of the R1082 and T1083. This set operated at low frequency, so large range, and was intended for communication of the individual a/c with their base. With a rotatable antenna it could be used for direction finding. As far as I know this set was NOT used for a/c to a/c communication.
• For fighters there was the TR9D, consisting of the R1120 and T1119, operating at 4.4-6 MHz. Range of this set was very poor, and was useless a few km away from the air field. So it could then only be used for a/c to a/c communication.
• Around May new fighter a/c were started to be equiped with the much better TR1133 set. I expect that not many units in France already used this radio, probably only home based Fighter Command a/c.
• Coastal Command used a simplified version of the TR9D, the TR9J
• The TR9F was installed into bombers probably from the end of 1940, adding a 2nd channel and possibly a/c to a/ccommunication. So it is pretty impossible to find TR9F in May 1940 a/c.

So yes, from that perspective I'm still surprised you've found a Battle with a TR9D. The question is whether it still contained the standard TRF, with an additional TR9D, or had the first one replace with a TR9D. The best explanation is that Battle pilots valued a/c to a/c communication more than communication back to base, and installed the standard fighter equipment.

Regards, Pieter

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Pieter

Regarding the TR 1133 being introduced in May 1940, the RAF / MoD stated the following in their Battle Of Britain 70th Anniversary publication:-

"Ground-to-air and air-to-air communications were facilitated by another technological advance - very high frequency (VHF) radio. In 1939 Fighter Command aircraft were still equipped with TR 9D high frequency (HF) radios. An operational trial undertaken with the new TR 1133 VHF radio by No 11 Group in October 1939 showed it to be "infinitely superior to the TR 9D (HF) from an operational point of view". "

"Despite its improved performance, delays in production forced Fighter Command to withdraw the TR 1133 from service in May 1940. Although the new set was reintroduced from August 1940, the limited number of VHF radios available nevertheless meant that the majority of squadrons would be forced to continue with the earlier TR 9D HF radio for the remainder of the battle."

Published in association with Royal Air Force Media and
Communications, Headquarters Air Command

www.raf.mod.uk

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

I have never come across any 1940 fighter losses (or early 1941 for that matter!) that had anything other than a TR9D.

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

(Extract quote from posting)

Hello All

I agree with Andy regarding fighter aircraft using the TR 9D, even the quote I used about the new VHF set being introduced in a very limited way in August 1940, looks over optimistic and as it states the TR 9D was still in use by Fighter Squadrons throughout the Battle of Britain.

There is proof to back up the fact that the new VHF set was not in use by Fighters in August 1940, as the Accident Card for Hurricane P3684 which crashed after hitting a balloon cable on the 19th August 1940 states in part:-

"Did not receive order to alter course. In view of proximity of balloon barrage to drome a/c will be kept above balloon ht until over base. Introduction of V.H.F in near future will ensure that correct signals are received (OC)"

Therefore, the new VHF set was still not in use by fighters.

Even the quote I used about the new TR 1133 VHF set, starting to be introduced in August 1940 now looks over optimistic and incorrect.

Mark

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

So is there a period when TR1133 set could be considered to be in widespread use? I only ask because, AFAIK, the TR9D was still in use overseas at the end of 1941 and that seems a very long time to be relying on such a poor radio.

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Overseas is another matter, because it also relies upon the transmitting network being equipped to the same standard. All this takes time. Spitfire Mk.Vs were built with UK aircraft having the TR1133, but the TR9D was part of the tropicalisation mods. This certainly requires TR1133 as the UK standard by the time of the Mk.V - or at least the tropicalised versions, but I don't have a list of the Amendments to see what was initial equipment for the standard aircraft.

I don't see any particular reason to doubt that the re-equipment with TR1133 could have started in August 1940, or even earlier, but that's not the same thing as complete re-equipment of even Fighter Command.

Re: Transmitter Reciever TR9D
 

Mark, Andy,

Thanks for the additional info.
I think we're all saying the same thing, namely that the TR9D was the main radio set for RAF fighters in the May 1940 period (and well beyond). All I said was that formally the TR1133 became available around that period, without any statements about its possible widespread use. Your info about the rate of adoption are very interesting.

In fact, looking back, it is rather shocking to see with what quality of radio equipment the RAF aircraft were equiped. The so-called linear or straight receivers are known to have very poor sensitivity (=range) and were difficult to keep tuned (=stable). Almost all German radios of the period were already super-heterodyne, with much higher sensitivity, tunability and stability. And companies like Philips used the same concept in commercial radio receivers. The TR1133, although much improved, was still a linear receiver. That makes it all the more interesting to see that even under the pressure of war it took all of 1940 to get the TR1133 into production. And only the next model, the Marconi T1115/R1116 was finally based on super-heterodyne principles. Although some sources say this one came available June 1940, I suspect operational roll out of this one was not before 1941.

Regards, Pieter