Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Hi folks,

Via Paul Wicht over LEMB Forum, I came across this excellent and crisp Bf 109 G shot, taken somewhere in Northern Italy during Spring 1945 by T/Sgt. Joe Mitchell, 379th BS, 310 BG.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...ream/lightbox/

"Schwarze 11" might well be a Bf 109 G-14 from 2./NAGr. 11. I would greatly appreciate any confirmation/information about this particular machine and the place where the pic was taken.

Hopefully yours
Marc

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Too much frustration trying to sign in to Flickr at the moment (your post made me think that maybe I should join up) so I haven't seen the photo but there was a Bf 109 G-8, W.Nr. 230292, Schw. 11 found demolished and burnt out at Campoformido-Udine in 1945.

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Nick,

With thanks to Paul Wicht, here is the direct link to the website hosting this great shot:

http://www.warwingsart.com/12thAirForce/Mitchell18.jpg

As for the machine, it looks neatly belly landed with minimal damage in a crop field which is still in its early stage of growth (March - April). Crossing my fingers it rings you a bell!

Cheers and thanks
Marc

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

If that is Northern Italy (and it is a big "if"... I say that because there were colour slides from members of the 350th FG which turned out to be taken in Germany), the only clue is the one supplied bt my friend Nick.

That is not an Italian (ANR) aircraft, and the only other unit flying Bf 109s below the Alps in 1945 was NAGr.11, whose losses are known. Thus, I rely on the plane found at Campoformido, maybe looted and set on fire before the officers from the Allied Intelligence unit came there and wrote the report...

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

If the W.Nr. supplied by Nick Beale is correct than its in a range of G-6/R2 models according Falcons site.

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

The pic came from a member of the 379th BS (310th BG) from July, 1944 to March, 1945
http://www.warwingsart.com/12thAirForce/mitchell.html

Unit based at Ghisonaccia Airfield, Corsica during this timeframe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/310th_Space_Wing
http://www.warwingsart.com/12thAirFo...oncorsica.html

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Caro Veltro,

Thanks fro your confirmation; you will appreciate bet if this picture was taken in Italy or in Germany... Interestingly enough, the crop growth points towards an early Spring stage (April at the latest). If I read Nick well, NAGr 15 was by then still at it's home base of Udine. What are the known losses in March - April 1945 for this unit?

Gogh,
Certainly. The issue is about this being the photographed plane... Still crossing my fingers for any fresh information. The background question I have is the very peculiar camouflage with this small RLM 76 (?) triangle atop the fin. This matches closely the same sign atop of Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 463 141 "Schwarze 17", 2./NAGr. 14, which was landed by it's pilot on 8 May 1945 at Fürth:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625539886908

Any idea for the signification of this peculiar marking?

udf_00,

Thanks for your input; I'm aware of that, but the scenery cannot possibly match the corsican one... This photograph was certainly taken either in Northern Italy, or, as Veltro points out, even in Germany, though my gut feeling would speak for the former....

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Just for conversation's sake, let's clear some logical points about my doubts on the real place where the photo was taken.

a) The photo wasn't taken earlier than May 1945, simply because Northern Italy territory was occupied until then and land of battle in the last week of April and first days of May.

b) A member of an operational flying unit could thus not be allowed to wander in such territories before the war had ended.

c) After the end of the war there were several instances of members of flying units organizing "journeys" in former occupied territories to look at the results obtained on the ground. In many instances such journeys (thanks to some extended leaves) ended up un France, Germany or Austria.

Thus, the photo can only have been taken from mid-May 1945 onwards, in Italy but not necessarily so.

Concerning NAGr.11 losses, one Bf 109 was lost on February 17, and on the same day one was damaged in a test flight. On February 21, one crashed in Istria. On the 23rd another one was shot down and destroyed near Cittadella. On 7 March one Bf 109s crashed and onother was damaged in non operational flights. On 4 April a bombing of Campoformido brought to the loss of three Bf 109s with nine damaged.

By 24 April 1945 all NAGr. 11 operations virtually ceased.

Thus, there are some possibilities that the Bf 109 of the photo was one of those damaged and unaccounted for, but nothing can be sure.

BTW, the data was extracted by our "Air War Italy 1944-45". In the book all W.Nr. involved in combats and accidents (where known) are reported, but there is no "black 11" other than the one found abandoned in Campoformido.

That's all.

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Caro Ferdinando,
Thanks for your thoughtful and thorough thoughts surrounding the possible background around this suggestive picture. I understand better the possible time frame for shooting this photograph. The only clue it gives is that the pilot managed to pull out a smooth belly landing with minimal damage; I've checked your excellent book and all losses given for NAGr 11 obviously crashed...

And for the known "Schwarze 11" in Campoformido, well, maybe it was gutted later? Not much to add on this, but thanks to you and Nick for your reflections.

Cheers
Marco

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Gentlemen,

Without knowing this aircraft's werknummern, it is very difficult to be 100 percent certain of its subtype and, by extension, its role. The only real clue is the enigmatic white wedge atop the rudder. Besides black 17, W.Nr. 463141, another Gustav, yellow 12, W.Nr. unknown, photographed after the war at Kassel-Rothwestern, also had the white wedge and, I recall seeing at least one other Gustav with this marking but can't recall exactly where. I think the odds are in favor of a fighter unit as opposed to reconnaissance because neither black 17 nor Yellow 12 had any visible camera carrying features.

Hal

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Hello everyone,

This beautiful aircraft is of particular interest to me because of the prominent wedge of white on its upper rudder. As Mr. Lake stated, counting this new example, there are four that I have documented so far:

G-? 11+ Bk o/l W, Belly landed, 45/05/08+ Location UNK
G-14 463141, 17+ Bk o/l W, Surrendered, 45/05/08, Fürth
G-14 12+ Y o/l Bk, Captured intact, 45/05/08, Kassel-Rothwesten
G-14? 1+ Bk o/l W, Surrendered, 45/04/26, Faßberg

Interestingly, along with the wedge of white on their rudders, three of the four share white-outlined black plane numbers. Hopefully, we will eventually determine the purpose of this unique rudder marking.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Gents,

Thanks so much for your inputs; as you put it Steve, "Schwarze 11" is really a beautiful machine, and this white wedge is of special interest. Is this really a new feature, never seen before? I'll have a look at the F./ and NAG units machines pics I do have under my hand....

Harold,
the issue of seeing cameras fixtures on 109's is truly a discouraging one. I wouldn't dismiss a NAG machine on the only count no camera fixtures are being seen on a photograph. You can check my Bf 109 G-8 section and none of the 32 referenced pictures do ever show the slightest hint of cameras.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625536800422/

On the contrary, W.Nr. 463 141 "Schwarze 11" is officially documented as being on strength of 2./NAG. 14. All doors remain thus open...

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Folsk,

Just for the sake of a close-up on one of those white wedges Bf 109 G tails, I've uploaded such a pic of Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 463 141 "Schwarze 17" of 2./NAG 14:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Still looking for others; there is one similar marking on a tail of a Bf 109 G in Broken Eagles 2, p. 8, taken at Lippstadt.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Just found and added the picture of "Gelbe 12", found in Kassel-Rothwesten, May 1945.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Hi all,
in Revi magazine No.44 there is a collection of photos showing at least three Bf 109s with those white triangles on their rudders. They were found at the war's end in Hodkovice (Liebenau near Reichenberg) and the authors attribute them to III./EJG 1. Apparently this speculation is based on the geographic area and the difference in marking style compared to NAGr 15 (then based at Liberec/Reichenberg).
But even after a quick check some conflicting facts come up. For once, Martin Holm's site sees II./EJG 1 in Liebenau, not III./EJG 1. Secondly, the marking styles of "Black 17" at Fürth and "White 12" at Kassel are different to each other too.
So not much clarity here, but perhaps a small puzzle piece that will lead to a solution.

Regards,
Christian

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Greeting all,

Can someone scan the photos to which Christian refers in REVI magazine #44? I would love to get a look at them

Steve Sheflin

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Hi all,

If it's so, it's not a unit marking but something else I did suggest in Marc Flickr page under "Schwarze 11" picture... Explanation still open.

Cheers, Franck.

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Here they are (bad scan quality is not mine but the arrows are). It seems that we have another small Bf 109 detail still unknown...

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Many thanks, Ferdinando!

The workshop picture does bring closer Franck's theory the wedge bring a manufacturer mark, may e even a wooden tail producer.

If my memory serves me well, the first pic showing a Bf 109 in a hangar its nose on the sun was taken in Skutec, and is also published by Janowsky in 2010 in Kagero's "Bf 109 G/K. Vol III.

As you say Ferdinando, another small piece of the "Beule's" checkered history...

Cheers from Autun, Burgundy
Marc

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Hello guys,

Lucky man back in historical place; nice city ... Huuuummm Nice wines too!
Telling the true I remember two or three pictures showing us racks of fins; I don't know where they are, neither if I kept them ... I'm trying to trace them to confirm - or not - what I guess. Of course, there is something to do with a wooden fin subcontractor; The "white" being a primer coating for wood ...

Cheers, Franck.

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Hi all,

I am a new member of this forum even if I am dealing with research about WWII crashes in Friuli, Italy, from at least ten years.
The data I could collect from various sources over the past few years are fairly consistent but certainly much more remains to be collected and documented.
I would like now speak about that photo published on Flickr.
I have this one in my database (about Axis losses in Friuli, Italy). Unfortunately there are only a few data but, probably, could be possible to find out something more with the help of someone in this forum.

07/03/1945 BF 109G-6/R2 WNr 230272 I./NAGr 11 Crash landed at Campoformido because of mechanical failure and probably abandoned on the airfield.
Might this be the plane of the picture?

On the same day NAGr 11 lost another Bf 109, a G-6 ? (Erla) WNr 410531 (BX + II), also for mechanical failure, belly landed south-east of Latisana.
Only five days later, March 12, 1945, the NAGr 11 (Kdr Hans Schumann) was disbanded, presumably due to lack of aircraft, and left the airport that, because of heavy bombing, was only partially functional and exclusively used by the Arado 234B-2b of the Sonderkommando Sommer until the end of the war.

Freddy

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

This is not quite what happened.

On 14 March the Gen. der Aufklärungsflieger's diary says that the disbandment of Stab and 1./NAGr. 11 has been ordered and that Kommando Sommer is to take over the role of 2.(F)/122 and some of the duties of NAGr. 11.

In fact 1./NAGr. 11 existed for another three weeks. The Quartermaster of the Luftwaffe Commanding General in Italy reported on 8 April to OKL's Quartermaster General (6. Abteilung):

… Stab and 1./NAGr. 11 disbanded: 10 Bf 109 G-10/R2 available for OKL Gen. der. Aufklärungsflieger; 4 Bf 109 G-8/R5 given up to Feldwerft Abt. I/90 for exploitation; 3 Fw 190 taken over from Stab by 2./NAGr. 11. Establishment strength was fixed at 16 aircraft, 12 Bf 109 and 4 Fw 190.

2./NAGr. 11 had been subordinated to FAGr. 122 on 4 April. On 22 April it reported a strength 8 (5) Bf 109 G-10/R2, based at Udine II. (The Staffel's Fw 190s had been passed to NSGr. 9). 2./NAGr. 11 continued to operate and was due to withdraw to Bolzano on 27 April but bad weather prevented this. All its Bf 109s were reported destroyed at Campoformido, except one G-8 at Aviano and one at Vicenza. There no NAGr. 11 pilots reported among the aircrew still in Italy at the Surrender.

(See "Air War Italy 1944-45" by N. Beale, F. D'Amico and G. Valentini, Airlife Publishing, 1996).

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Nick, thank you very much for the precious and detailed information. I apologize for the inaccuracies in what I have written.
To tell the truth I didn't do a thorough verification and I based on what refers Roberto Bassi at page 75 of "Il Cielo di Campoformido ..., Part II" (Bassi cites the two Bf 109 lost on March 7, 1945, but without providing other details, apart from the Unit and date)
Indeed, what you say is perfectly correct and so I will fix all wrong data in my archives.
Among other things I did not realize that also Michael Holm indicates the month of May 1945 as the date of cessation of activities for both 1./NAGr 11 and 2./NAGr 11 while instead indicates March 1945 for the Stab. The dates are not exactly correct but closer to reality than those written by me.


Many thanks
Freddy

Re: Bf 109 G identity seeked
 

Thanks Freddy for your input.

Nick and Ferdinando, any chance for "Schwarze 11" to be W.Nr. 230 272?

Cheers
Marc