Kew and Combat Reports
 

Hi,

Does anyone plan a visit of the National Archive in days to come ? I need three CRs of No.64 Sqn from early April 1941.
I have ordered them in a pack of another AIR file copies however I was given to understand that CR copies cannot be made because they weren´t found. A problem of time ? I believe they exist and look-see can solve my problem. Who can help me ?
Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Michal

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Michal,

If you would post the names and dates, I can check my files tonight to see if they are on the Air 50 microfilm for 64 Squadron.

Frank.

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Hi Frank - nice to meet you here!!

Michal - if Frank can't help I will check for you during my next visit to Kew. Let me know.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Frank and Brian,

Thank you for willingness. From AIR 50/24:
1) 9th April 1941 and reports of S/L Rankin, F/L O´Meara.
2) 22nd January 1941 and report of P/O Rowden.

Michal

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

A problem with CR's at Kew is that a considerable number were stolen years ago and not all have been recovered.
I searched for combat reports from 64 Sqn earlier this year from spring 1942 and onwards but there were none from the period,at least not CR's from the Norwegians that served on the Squadron during this period.

Stein

P.S. I'm planning a trip to Kew in late November.

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Hello Stein,

I have similar experience with the CRs from a period May-June 1942.

Regards to South Norway,
Michal

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Hello
Frank may explain it further but as I recall, those were mostly if not only WWI files affected by Graves' thievery. It seems there were gaps in the PCRs before they were archived.
Anyway, I was able to fil most of the gaps with reference to Poles by searching in a Polish archive. I suppose Czechoslovak and Norwegian inspectorates got the reports as well, so have you checked your respective archives?
Cheers

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Sorry for the delay, I was at work extra late.

Jan 21, 1941 @ 1215, Ju-88 dam, 10 m N of Calais; reference: CR: Air 50/24-116&117, 212, 219, 248 (microfilm frame numbers) (shared with two pilots)

April 9, 1941 @ 1030, Rowden: Me-109 prob, Mardyck area; ref: CR: Air 50/24-217

@1035, Heath: Me-109 dam, off French coast, near Mardyck; ref: CR: Air 50/24-69&70

@1040, O'Meara, He-59 dest, 0.5 m N of Dunkirk; ref: CR: Air 50/24-193&194

no claim for Rankin. Did you mean Heath? On April 11 Rankin made a claim while with 92 Squadron.

Frank.

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

I have further checked my database, and find very few missing reports. I have several combat reports by Norwegians, Belgians, and Dutch, as well as RAAF and Rhodisian pilots. This is based on initial references in the ORB, and in the Fighter Command Combats and Casualties reports. I have a reference from the FCCC to 2 FW-190s destroyed on May 7, 1942, between 1827 and 1955, by 64 Sqn pilot(s), with no combat report; an FW-190 prob on June 22, 1942 by Duncan-Smith with a late confirmation in FCCC; and an FW-190 dam on June 29, 1942, also with a late confirmation in FCCC.

Graves stole material from both Air 1 and Air 50, as well as Air 27 and others. I was shown three (white plastic) Post Office tubs full of recovered Air 50 reports. I know pages were cut out of ORBs from both WW1 and WW2. I was also shown at least four such tubs of Air 1 material. I believe (almost?) all the WW2 material was recovered, as I have few holes in the combat reports that I have cataloged, all from microfilm. The Air 1 story is different however. Here he had started sending the originals to others, presumably selling them. Some of these have since been recovered, but not all. My WW1 index does show holes, based on a reference to a CR in Above the Trenches, indicating that Chris, Norman and/or Russell had access to a CR.

Frank.

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Frank,

Thanks for the detailed information on the stolen material from the PRO.
You mentioned that you had been shown the recovered items in Post Office tubs. Do you know if those documents have since been returned to their rightful place in Air 1, 27, 50, etc. ?

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Martin,
As far as I know all of the material recovered at the time of the investigation has been restored to Air 1, 27, 50 etc. Not all of it ended up in the original location, as it was not always obvious where it came from. This is especially true of Air 1, where combat reports can be found in squadron, wing, brigade, and theater pieces. Air 50 I think did get restored properly, since basically each squadron had its own piece. Air 50 (and Air 27) is now closed, and can only be viewed on microfilm.

Some of the Air 1 material recovered in the past 5 or so years has not been restored to (some) Air 1 piece.

As the material was restored, Eric O'Dell put a cover letter at the beginning of the piece, detailing what had been recovered, and what was known to still be missing.

Frank.

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Frank – It looks you found and have exactly what I needed. According to my info the first event was on 22nd and (also) Rankin claimed one He-59 destroyed on water on April 9. I sum up it. If you can make copies or extracts of
* P/O Rowden´s sharing on January victory and
* three April claims (Rowden, Heath, O´Meara),
it save me time, nerves and I´ll be very thankful.

Franek – You are right. AM Janousek´s staff got the reports relevant to Czechoslovak airmen and they are in VHU, Prague. However my case is about events without CZ participation.

Regards,
Michal Havrda

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Frank,

I forgot to post my e-mail address.
fairlop@quick.cz

Thanks in advance,
Michal

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Hallo Frank,

Again thanks for that update on those recovered items. Of interest to me because of late I am doing my best to visit the PRO several times a year.

A further query however. To your knowledge has the recovered Air 27/50 material been microfilmed and if so where is it located ?

Regards,

Martin.

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Can anyone come up with a reference to what happened at Kew? How is it possible that so much stuff was stolen? I've tried googling and obviously didn't get the right answer...:confused:

Kyrre the ignorant

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Kyrre,
Graves was stealing this material in the late '80s-early '90s. He was arrested, and found guilty, and given 18 months (suspended) and fined 5000 pounds and ordered to sell his book collection to pay the fine. I do not know how long he continued to work at MOD (handling classified documents no less, I understand). I have a newspaper clipping that Norman Franks sent to me at the time. I have not been so foolish as to ask them to describe the methods he used to steal the records.

Martin,
I know that the recovered Air 50 material at least was microfilmed as separate pieces. I believe if you use the microfilms in the Microfilm Room, or buy it, that it will be included on the end of each piece (unless it had already been microfilmed, of course). At the time of the thefts the PRO had microfilmed the ORBs up to about 300 Squadron. I would assume that recovered pages were reinserted in the bound volume, and then microfilmed. All of Air 50 and Air 27 is now closed to physical access, and only the microfilms are available.

Michal/Fairlop,
My copies are on microfilm, and I cannot print them. I am afraid it will take too much time to fish out the films, clear the books and papers from in front of my microfilm reader, locate the various reports, and transcribe them. You will either have to go there yourself, or arrange for someone to copy them from the microfilm. I won't be going there until sometime next Spring/Summer.

Frank.

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Hi Frank,

It´s a pity however it´s a live. I´ll ask Brian if he can help me during his present trip to Kew.
Thanks for your time !

Regards,
Michal

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Hi

Does the National Archive have a home page. And what is the addres.

Cheers Nick

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Hi Nick,

Here´s the home page: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
an postal address: The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU.

Regards,
Michalhttp://ad.doubleclick.net/activity;s...4;ord=1;num=1?

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Thanks for the update on Graves, Frank. Pity there are still many "Graves" about... :(

Kyrre

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Frank,

Many thanks for all the information - and the background to it. Next trip to the PRO I shall be more aware of where to look.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Kew and Combat Reports
 

Hi,
If it's any help , have a good look around at the aerojumbles, last one I visited had combat reports and crash reports for sale, in amongst one of the tables, they looked original and not repro's.
I am not saying these were ex PRO / NA ones , as there was often more than one copy.
It is a pity so much stuff went from the PRO in the old days, most disturbing to re visit a file to find stuff not there 30 yrs later ........
Wish I had a digital camera in the 70's .............
Cheers
Jerry