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Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Apart from the AW Ensigns and DC-3 OO-AUI/2094 lost at Arques 23 May 40, can anyone tell me what other impressed airliners were lost in the BofF?
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Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
One ex SABENA SM73P damaged (straffed on Merville airfield) one other shot down by Bf 109s on 23 May 1940.
Cheers Thierry |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Chris,
Let's cut to the chase. Does anyone have reliable information on where & when the attached aircraft was lost ? Many thanks. |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Peter's photo shows the ex-SABENA OO-AUI as mentioned in the post by Chris. Many photos of this aircraft exist showing it before and after its destruction. At least one photo of this wreck clearly shows the 'OO-AUI' markings while one in its intact state barely reveals the bottom of the above registration.
One E-Bay caption of a photo showing the intact aircraft claims that it was captured near Arques by the 3rd Panzer Division on 24 May 1940. I have seen nothing conclusive about its fate. Some sources suggest two of the Belgian crew were killed or that several passengers were injured. It seems certain that it was destroyed soon after capture, one popular theory is that it was strafed by RAF fighters. Regards, Martin Gleeson. |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Martin,
Thanks for the information. So the two photos attached show the same aircraft soon after its arrival at Arques and before its eventual destruction ? I recognise that the camouflage pattern does seem the same and there is a distinctive chimney(?) in the background of a couple of shots. |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Hello,
From a dated, but reliable source: Meanwhile, the DC-3 OO-AUI, en route to St Nazaire, was hit by flak and, having lost a part of its wing, made a crash-landing in a field at Arques, killing the pilot and wounding the other members of the crew. The mechanic Piet Vrebos was captured by German forces but his civilian status was apparently accepted and he was sent home. The loss of two valuable pilots - Raymond Charlier and Victor Moreau - was a blow for Sabena. An Airlne at War. De Wulf,Herman. Air Enthusiast. No.13 (Aug/Nov. 1980) p.74. Col |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Thank you Col,
Many thanks but that information I have. I'm trying to positively identify the aircraft shown in various photos. |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
1 Attachment(s)
Peter
I don't think the two sets of photos show the same aircraft. Your second set of two DC-3 shows basically an intact aircraft captured by the Germans. There are no trace of any AA-fire as far as I can see. There is another photo from e-bay of this aircraft which I have attached (hopefully) which clearly shows it with German troops. So unless we surmise that this aircraft somehow escaped after a number of photos had been taken of it and later was shot down by AA-fire, I would say we are looking at two different aircraft. Cheers Stig |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
To me it is not entirely clear.
These are the usual facts as I know them: - Two Belgian Sabena DC3's escaped to England and were taken over by (probably) the RAF No.24 Sqn. These were the OO-AUH and OO-AUI. - The OO-AUI was shot down on May 23 while over Calais and crashed near Arques (near St Omer). All reports say this was due to part of the left wing being shot away. The crash was pretty heavy since the pilot died in the accident. - The OO-AUH ended up in Algiers around June 1940 and was given to the Italians. - I can't find any references to other DC3's used by the RAF in May 40. What do we see on the different pictures? - The two pictures from Peter's 2nd mail and the one from Stig are very likely the same a/c, which seems fully intact, and abandoned on a large air field (Merville?) - The first picture of Peter of the burnt a/c - and I have more of the same plane - shows in my view an aircraft that has been fired deliberately. It was standing on its wheels when fired, there are no bullet holes etc. Also note that the left wing seems entirely intact. So my questions or assumptions: - There seem to be three different aircraft: 1) the OO-AUI that crashed and from which there doesn't seem to be pictures. 2) the OO-AUH that ended up in Italian service. 3) the burnt out aircraft - If there indeed only two and not more DC3's operated by the RAF in May 40, then the only conclusion can be that the burnt aircraft must be the OO-AUI. But then the stories about a damaged left wing, a crash etc don't seem accurate. The pictures suggest it landed properly but was then set alight. - I assume that the captured aircraft was the OO-AUH, otherwise I can't explain how an RAF plane ended up in German hands in Algiers. - Of course all theories change if there were more than two DC3 in use. Regards, Pieter |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Many thanks Stig for the additional photo of OO-AUI. This is the key to unravelling my question as you can make out the lower half of the serial on the rear fuselage confirming its exact identity.
Pieter summarises precisely the same problems I was experiencing with these and other photos of the burned out DC-3. But Chris Goss pointed out the partial serial OO-AU remaining on one of the shots of this one. So, given the exact match in camouflage pattern, plus the distinctive chimney in the distance in some photos, I am now reasonably well satisfied that we are looking at the same machine which landed intact near Arques on 23 May 1940 and subsequently became burned-out. Thank you all for your input. |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Hallo,
. I agree with Peter Cornwell about the fate of DC-3 'OO-AUI'. . Sabena in 1940 had only two DC-3s and no DC-2s. The massive Air-Britain DC-1/-2/-3 publication confirms this and also seems to account satisfactorily for all of the Dutch DC-2/DC-3s. So apart from photographic evidence a process of elimination leaves OO-AUI as the only possible aircraft to match these photos. . The 24 Squadron Operational Record Book has nothing on the events of 23 May 1940 unforunately due to a gap in its records. . I had forgotten about the 'AIR ENTHUSIAST', No. 13 article quoted by Col Bruggy. Some extra details and corrections were given in follow-up letters in issues 14 and 15. These and Pieter's summary lead me to put forward the following for discussion. It seems probable to me the aircraft that crashed on 23 May 1940 (losing a wing and leaving two pilots dead and two crewmen badly injured) was not DC-3 'OO-AUI' but rather the SIAI Marchetti S.73 'OO-AGS'. It is generally reported that it was shot down by enemy aircraft soon after take-off from Merville. . Combining information from 'AIR ENTHUSIAST' nos. 13 and 15 the crew of S.73 'OO-AGS' were almost certainly; Raymond Chartier (pilot), killed Victor Moreau (pilot), killed Armand Peeters (radio officer), badly injured ..........Leysen (flight mechanic), badly injured. . What may help - if anyone has access to it - is the ORB for 271 Squadron RAF, another transport unit. Four of the S.73s, including OO-AGS, were assigned to 271 Squadron, while two more S.73s and the two DC-3s went to 24 Squadron. . It would be of interest too to learn exactly where the two Belgian pilots are buried (Arques, Merville or elsewhere). Plus their correct titles in the airline. . Hope this helps and looking forward to further discussion on the subject. . Martin Gleeson. |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Martin
I have the following from various sources CHARTIER Raymond Emille Serial Number 258/2226 of Belgian Air Force Pilot rank 1 Sgt: Unit 24 Sqn. RAF SABENAi n service Date of Death 23/05/1940 Type: DC3 Serial number: OO-AUI Operation: Lost: 23/05/1940 Sergeant (Pilot) Raymond Chartier (Belgium), BAF (VR), servicenr 258/2226, initially buried at Arcques, exhumed and reinterred 5-9-1950 at Ixelles, Belgium. Plt Off Benson Freeman - PoW Captain John M.H. Hoare, British Overseas Airways Corporation, age unknown, 23/05/1940, Arques Churchyard, France Aircraft was over Calais and it was hit by anti-aircraft and part of the left wing was torn off. The pilot (Raymond Chartier) made a forced landing near Arques. The navigator was killed and two of the passengers wounded, while Chartier was shot by German troops as he tried to reach French lines. The remaining passengers were taken prisoner including Plt Off Benson Freeman of 24 Squadron. The engineer, Piet Vrebos, survived the crash of OO-AUI. The German troops took him POW, but released him and sent him at home because he was a civilian. Captain Hoare was the skipper of Armstrong Whitworth Ensign G-ADSZ ""Elysean"". This machine was straffed on the ground at Merville by Bf-109s earlier that day. So Hoare was a passenger on this aircraft to return to U.K. Navigator/Pilot: MOREAU Victor Pilot Rank: 1 Sgt 271 Sqn. RAF SABENA in Service V Date of Death "25/05/1940 " I note all the inconsistences now.. two different Sqns and 2 diffferent dates and different name of Engineer! which may indicate the two losses have become mixed up OO-AUI (DC3) and OO-AGS (S.73) |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Hallo Paul,
Superb information, thank you very much. It is great to have more names of those on board. I wonder what were the circumstances of Victor Moreau's death if he died on the 25th. I am more convinced than ever that most or all of the deaths and injuries took place when the S.73 'OO-AGS' crashed. I do not recall ever seeing a photo of this wreck however. Regards and thanks again, Martin. |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
I have dug out the following from AB Impressments file (baring in mind info now 50 years old)
ARMSTRONG WHITWORTH A.W.27 ENSIGN I Twelve Ensigns were used by N.A.C. from September 1939 until June 1940. During the evacuation from France three Ensigns were lost : G-ADSZ ' Elysian ' was attacked by the Me 109s and destroyed by fire at Merville on 23.5.40. G-ADTA ' Euryalus ' was returning from Merville soon after the destruction of 'DSZ when it was fired on by German ground units. Two engines put out of action and the Ensign limped into Lympne and crash-landed. G-ADSX ' Ettrick ' was abandoned at Le Bourget A/P on June 1st after a severe air raid had rendered the airliner unserviceable. Two Ensigns, G-ADST ' Elsinore ' and G-ADTB ' Echo ', were delivered to No. 24 Sqn. at Hendon from Birchan Newton on 11.5.40 and were attached to ' E ' Flight. They retained their civilian status and were returned to B.O.A.C. towards the end of 1940. DOUGLAS DC-E (Dakota) Two DC3s of Sabena, 00-AUH and 'AUI, escaped to the U.K. in May 1940 and were taken over by the RAF. There are conflicting stories concerning their fate and the offical Air Ministry one is, in our opinion, the least likely. They claim that both aircraft were returned to Sabena and during February 1942 they left the U.K. for the Belgian Congo, but something went wrong en-route and they were interned by the Vichy authorities. Their more likely stories are detailed below. 2093 OO-AUH Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn. on the 11th from Speke and used by "E" Flight. Returned to Sabena in June and flown to Algiers where it was interned on August 27th 1940 by Vichy France. Most likely taken over by the Germans in 1942 and flown by Lufthasa in civil markings. 2098 00-AUI Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn on the 11th from Speke and attached to "E" Flight. On the morning of May 23rd, OO-AUI was being loaded with food and ammunition at Croydon, in company with five Ensigns and two S.73s, for isolated troops at Merville, France. The formation arrived safely at their destination, but during the unloading they were attacked by two Bf 109s; one Ensign was destroyed and the engines of one S.73 were made u/s by cannon shells. The remaining aircraft took-off and flew back towards the U.K., but were fired at by ground units en route and both the S.73 and OO-AUI were shot down near Calais. SAVOIA-MARCHETTI S.73 The S.73 had accommodation for a crew of four and eighteen passengers. Of Italian design, it followed the current Continental trend towards three engines and monoplane wing. The first five delivered to the Belgian airline SABENA were Italian built, but in 1936/137 seven S.73's were built under licence in Belgium by S.A.B.C.A. for SABENA. Seven managed to escape to the U.K. in May 1940 and were taken over by the RAF. OO-AGL, 'GO, 'GQ and 'CS were powered by three Gnome-et-Rhone K.9s, while OO-AGX. 'GY and 'G2 had been re-engined with Wrigbt Cyclone GR.1820-G.2 motors. 30001 OO-AGL Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 271 Sqn. on the 12th and returned to SABENA on the 31st. lnterned by the Vichy authorities in Algiers on 22.9.40 and not heard of again. 30005 OO-AGO Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No, 271 Sqn. on the 12th and returned to SABENA on the 31st. Interned by the Vichy authorities while en route for the Congo on 22.9.40. OO-AGQ Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 271 Sqn, on tbe 12th and returned to SABENA on the 31st. OO-AGQ disappeared during the war and was probably interned by the Vichy authorities along with 'AGL OO-AGS Nil 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 271 Sqn. on the 12th (May 1940) and was shot down near Calais, while flying back from Merville, on 23.5.40. (See under DC-3 for full story.) OO-AGX NU 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn. from Speke the same day and attached to "E" E'lt. Went missing at 19.00 hrs. from France on 23.5.40 and was SOC on the 27th. OO-AGY Nil 14.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn on the 15th and attached to "E" Flt. Went missing at 19.00 his. from France on 23.5.40 and was SOC on the 27th. OO-AGZ NI1 11.5.40. S.A.B.E.N.A. Delivered to No. 24 Sqn from Speke that same day and attached to "E" Flt. Captured by the Germans at Merville, France, after being damaged by a strafing Bf 109 on 23.5.40. I note that more inconsitences on this - Mentions 2 S.73 going to Merville but there are 4 losses (OO-AGS, OO-AGX, OO-AGY, OO-AGZ) on 23.5.40! I would be interested to see what Colin Cummings book on Transport losses during WW2 has on this subject |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
I tend to support Martin in his theory that effectively only one aircraft was shot down at Arques/St Omer on the 23rd: the SM73 OO-AGS.
This also explains the conflicting info in different sources where the Belgian crew members are sometimes linked to the SM73 and sometimes to the DC3. Due to the confusion of the day aircraft identities got mixed, but only the SM73 seems a confirmed loss. The mix of 271 and 24 Sqn passengers and crew probably also did not help. My interpretation is then that all the pictures at the beginning of this threat are then indeed of one single aircraft: the DC3 OO-AUI. This aircraft really looks to have stayed behind completely undamaged on an airfield. My guess is still Merville. Alternatively it made a proper emergency landing on another large and deserted airfield. There it was found by the Germans. What is then surprising is that it later was burned, whereas the Germans were pretty eager in using any flyworthy aircraft they captured in the Luftwaffe or Lufthansa. So an act of sabotage? The alternative of strafing by the RAF as suggested is of course also possible. The last question is then how and why apparently so many aircraft were captured in Algiers. Further searching in Sabena sources reveals, however, that after many of the aircraft got returned to them by May 31, airline services were resumed in Africa. Main hubs were Oran and Algiers in the north, connecting to especially the Belgian colonies Congo and Ruanda. On June 25, when the Vichy-German armistice was signed, the Vichy government used the opportunity to confiscate all foreign/allied airliners on their territory, mainly at Algiers. That's how the DC3 OO-AUH and several SM73's ended up in Vichy hands and were then apparently given to Italy. Furthermore, to clarify the confusion on how many SM73's participated on the 23rd: http://aerobernie.ae.funpic.de/Sabena.html lists only two SM73's lost on the 23rd of May: the AGS shot down and the AGZ abandoned. The AGX and AGY listed in Paul's overview as also lost that day were in fact amongst those captured at Algiers and ended up in Italian service. They were written of in November in Brindisi. Regads, Pieter |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
The article in 'AIR ENTHUSIAST', No. 13 explains the reason for the two other 'missing' S.73s on 23 May 1940.
Though supposed to return to Britain it appears the crews of OO-AGX and OO-AGY decided instead to fly to Marseilles-Marignane airfield in the south of France. Sabena had a station there to facilitate the air route to the Belgian colony of the Congo. Apparently 24 Squadron did not learn of this development for several days, hence the listing as 'missing'. Regards, Martin Gleeson. |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
To add further to this, I obtained this photo on eBay and it appears different to the SABENA photo seen earlier-look at the engines and camouflage? I could be wrong though!
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Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Guys
This one is tricky but very interesting. Now if we cannot locate an "unknown" DC-3 we simply have to look at the same aircraft. OO-AUI is thus a very likely candidate. However what I would like to know is why the Germans blow up the aircraft. I cannot vouch for the two photos Peter came up with saying "24 Sq 23.5.40", but the one I supplied show it with German soldiers and if the two Peter supplied were taken at the same time, they all show a pretty much intact aircraft, certainly not hit by AA-fire. But why blow up such a useful aircraft? From the photos supplied of the highly damaged airframe the whole nose-section is gone! I must confess I still have a nagging worry we might look at two different aircraft....:o Cheers Stig |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Stig
Couldn't agree more. Peter C is on holiday for 10 days so I wonder what he will add to this on his return? Chris |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Yes, I will probably 'stick my oar in' again but 40+ degrees in the south of France currently makes my return to the UK problematic to be honest.
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Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Peter
Enjoy! 43degrees when we left for England a week ago. Now I need my overcoat.... |
Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Just back from a sub-arctic trip to North Yorkshire and it is now raining here. Less than 3 weeks until I head for the Dordogne...cannot wait Good to find you have a wifi-enabled bar!
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Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Damned right Chris. But Pezenas is a very civilised part of the world. Always one up Andy - when are we three going to make that long overdue research trip to France together ? Or should we organise a weekend seminar and offer tickets for sale to like-minded enthusiasts ?
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Re: Civil Airliner losses Battle of France
Funny Andy and myself were talking about just that over the weekend-speak about it when you get back!
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