Lent papers - a question
 

Hello
Anyone having the book? I cannot check it personally. Is there anything concerning combat and subsequent crash of Lent on 9 September 1939?
Thanks

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

I can check tonight when I get home.

Lynn

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

OK, no hurry.
TIA

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

No. For the 9th the author mentions that "on the 9th came the destruction of his 3rd a/c on the ground, a PZL 24, the 8th by the Staffel overall." He does mention being forced down on the 12th, however.

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Thanks! Are there any details concerning his landing on 12 September? I am curious if it is misdated or another incident.

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

The 12th September is a mistake done by the author. It only seems to be an author`s try of date conclusion.
The 9th is right (is confirmed by many original documents). According to page 41 Lent wrote in a letter that on Sunday (could only be the 10th September) Führer cogratulated him on his succesful emergency landing. Indeed Hitler was on 10.9.1939 in Kielce-Maslow at appr. 14.30 hours.

The interesting thing for you could be the fact that the starboard engine of Lent`s Bf 110C was shot out by a Polish fighter (surely 152 eskadra). So you can eventually count this aircraft as one further Polish fighter victory.

By the way the book does not contain any appendixes with sources used by the author - books, documents or whatever. So the question is how many errors were made. For example starting with the first 1th September 1939 mission against the airfield in Krakau (Krakow) Hinchcliff wrote about escorting for He 111`s of KG 4. Everybody writing about this bombing attack is making the same error coping each others false informations.
The bombers were in fact Do 17E`s of KG 77.

Marius

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Thanks for confirmation but I do not know, why do you credit 152 EM with the victory. Circumstances and place of loss indicate Lent was downed by a pilot of ex-131 EM who fought with a lonely Me 110 in Kamienna area. I have not found accounts of 152 EM pilots but account of Łapkowski indicates he fought with bombers, claiming a damaged or probable and only then with Me 110s.
A question is, is the book worth anything in way of first hand accounts of combats in Poland?

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

This is how the author describes that part of the war: "In a letter home he spoke of these achievements - and of an unexpected encounter on the 12th September with another Polish a/c:
"Since I last wrote you I have set fire to another 3 Polish machines (erlier reading shows that that previous letter was written on 3 Sep) on the ground. As I was having a go at a 4th a Pole took me by surprise and attacked me, shooting my starboard engine out. I had to make a forced landing behind our lines (a footnote says it was probably a PZL 37 'Elk', a twin-engine, low-wing monoplane). On Sunday the Fuhrer was with us, and he congratulated me on my successful emergency landing. (There was a picture of me in the newspaper as well). Goring visited us on Wednesday and spoke of our Gruppe's great successes. Greetings from your son, who enjoys merciful protection."

If as Marius said, the Sunday that Hitler visited Lent's unit was on the 10th of September, the incident obviously occurred prior to that. But, Hitler was still in Poland on the next Sunday, the 17th, it might just have happened during the following week. So, what are your original documents that support the shoot-down on the 9th?

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

In his book, Wolfgang Falck mentions that on 9.9.39 he received orders to fly to Breslau to escort GFM Goring's Ju 52 on a tour of some flying units in Poland.

This equates well with Marius's contention that the Sunday mentioned was 10.9.39, since Lent mentions Goring visiting them the following Wednesday (13.9.39?).

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Göring was on 13th September in Kielce and decorated some pilots of I./ZG 76 with E.K.II`s.

The loss of Lent`s aircraft on the 9th is easy to find. Even in GQM`s loss lists it is stated as "emergency landing". But also in the war diary of I./ZG 76 and in other German documents.

Franek, the aerial combat of 131 eskadra with a "Me 110" is one of many legends published in Poland. You surely mean the victory of por. Lech Grzybowski. But he fought with a lone Heinkel He 46 of 4.(H)/23. The aircraft fell to the ground near Ozorkow. Both aircrew died.
I wrote about this in "Lotnictwo Wojskowe" in my article about the dyon III/3.

Concerning por. Lapkowski`s combat on the 9th please read my article about Pursuit Brygada in the newest issue of Militaria XX wieku.

The book "Lent Papers" does not contain unknown first hand accounts for the Polish campaign. You will find more of them in my book "Jagdflieger". I used there Lent`s personal accounts for the first two days of September. The rest of it seems to have been gone lost.

Marius

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

I cannot find the issue, do you remeber which one it was? Polish documents say about Me 110, though as yet I do not have a copy of Grzybowski's report. It is on a current wishlist and I want to get it as soon as possible.

I did. You are drawing conclusions without any supporting documents.

That is, what I wanted to know. Thanks.

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Lotnictwo Wojskowe 3/2002, page 58-59.


For example?

Marius

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Many examples but where have you found that Horn was wounded on the afternoon? Where is the evidence of IV/1 attack on KG77 on 12.09.1939? Where is evidence that Wróblewski did not shot at Reither's aircraft?

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Franek,

About the pilot Zdzislaw Horn you have to check the Polish literature (for example Pawlak "Polskie eskadry..., page 43). Indeed Cynk wrote it was in the morning, but he is not given a source for the information.

Look to Cynk "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie...", page 357. At midday 114 eskadra flew a sortie against German bombers directing to Lublin.


The German formation (5./KG 77) with Reither`s Do 17Z was attacked by 2 fighters. Wroblewski reported that he started alone. 4.Staffel`s report is confirming this. A lone pilot was attacking the Dornier coded 3Z+KM.

Marius

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Marius
Pawlak did not either and I would trust Cynk more. Anyway, the pilot did not know at which moment he has been hit, so how you can conclude it was a Stuka? It could have been virtually anything!
And in the very same sentence it is added, that they did not intercept the raid.
What is the source of the information? KTB? Is it confirmed by anything else?

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Franek,

Yes, of course it could be everything. Therefore I wrote "propably" Horn was hit by the Stuka pilot. I couldn`t find any other opponent "shot down" by Uffz. Rödiger.
As I remember Cynk is the only one who placed Horn`s wounding in the morning of the day. There is really no reason to trust him more than others.


Yes, you are right, but this one is concluded by the author, isn`t it? Apparently 114th was the only unit flying sorties at this time.


KTB KG 77.

Marius

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Marius
Ridiculous explanation.
There is but for some weird reason you cannot understand that. Cynk is the only researcher, who get through Polish Institute archives - actually sorted them.
It is only your assumption it was concluded by Cynk. Actually it was taken from Kowalczyk's report.
OK. Anyway I will stick with Reither's version.

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Franek,

Anyhow, you surely know when the report was written down. Kowalczyk was writing what remained in his mind.
So maybe you could tell us what pilots flew this mission and at what time exactly? Isn`t there anything about the names of the pilots?
I have here some German KTB`s of fighter units, where a mission is written as o.F. (ohne Feindberührung - without enemy contact). In fact there was a short clash with Polish aircraft, but nobody reported a confirmed victory. Therefore in the KTB it remained o.F.


Cynk used many sources, not only the Polish Institute archives. However, he did not comment this information with any kind of a document or whatever.


OK. It is your decision. But what do you mean with Reither`s version? This one published in a Polish paper (SP) in the nineties?

Marius

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Marius
To be exact, it is not known what was the basis of several of those reports. Some suggest, their authors had some sort of notes.
I have not yet received a list of individual sorties flown by fighters in 1939. Also, I have not yet researched Brygada Pościgowa.
[/quote]I have here some German KTB`s of fighter units, where a mission is written as o.F. (ohne Feindberührung - without enemy contact). In fact there was a short clash with Polish aircraft, but nobody reported a confirmed victory. Therefore in the KTB it remained o.F.[/quote]
Well, this is rather a proof of inaccuracies in German documents.
Yes, indeed and it must be veified. Nonetheless Cynk's book as yet should have been regarded as a source book.
Yes.

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Franek,

Now we are at the beginning again. So for what the whole discussion about the victory of the 114 eskadra?


It is always easier to critisize someone`s work. Why won`t you start with hard evidences clearly showing that my researching is completely wrong?


Yes of course, so what? Have you now discovered America again? You will find such inaccuracies in every nation`s documents. I truly do not understand what you really want.

By the way, I read the Polish article about Reither`s mission on the 12th Sept. Where have you seen Reither`s report, his version or something like that? I couldn`t find it there.
Not only in this case an article is more important for you than the origin German document again? I can`t believe that. Why are you so instantly ignoring these documents?
You know the author of the article never saw any document of KG 77? Doesn`t matter?

Marius

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Marius
Frankly, I do not know. It is a very interesting case. See below.
There is no evidence 114 Eskadra ever contacted enemy raid. There is neither claim nor combat report filed by any pilot of the unit. The only source that a section of two took off, is at the moment a report by Kowalczyk. The very same source states, they have never contacted enemy.
Now, you take one sentence saying about patrol, but disregard another, saying about no combats. You have invented another victory, despite there is a claim at a proper time and place. Is not it a manipulation?
Yes, with you it makes so much impression.
It is not my problem, that you cannot read. In the article it is clearly stated, that they are looking for a single(!) Polish fighter, who downed Reither's aircraft. Also, IIRC, Reither based the event on 13 September, which is in full accordance with Wróblewski's report.
Look a few sentences above, where you admit, there are errors in German documents. The author has never seen any document, nonetheless he described an attack by a single Polish fighter based on memoirs of Reither, who was personally involved in the incident. Do I have to entirely trust KTB if everything else fits perfectly?

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Franek,

But it is most probably. If you have better informations so please give them to us.


Franek, nothing fits perfectly in your story. I think you are making a pretty show again here.

1.The author was never quoting the account or memories of Lt. Reither. So we do not know what Reither said or didn`t said.
2.The author never wrote it was a single Polish fighter. He wrote the aircraft was downed by Polish fighter, that`s a big difference and you know it.
3.The author means the Dornier was probably shot down by a pilot of dyon III/3 (Nowak). But Nowak shot down a Dornier of I./StG 76 in a completely different area. No word about Wroblewski.
4.The author never looked at any German document.
5.Even J.B.Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie...) is not confirming the date 13.9. and he is right. Look to the airfields where and when the unit was transferring to in those days. And look where Wroblewski started his mission. It was surely earlier than on 13.9.
6.What lone pilot attacked (mainly) the Do 17Z 3Z+KM? It was surely Wroblewski. The KTB`s report is confirming the whole observations of Wroblewski as he attacked. Wroblewski thought he hit the bomber because it changed course or accelerated and so on. According to the German document the pilot of the Dornier was flying higher, then he changed the course and so on - to allow the gunner taking the fighter under fire. Indeed both accounts very similar.
7.Wroblewski himself never reported about a confirmed victory, only a probable. The uncritical J.Pawlak (Polskie eskadry...) even added Wroblewski only one "damaged". Bajan`s commission victory list: completely nothing.
8.Kowalczyk wrote later the Polish pair did not contacted the enemy, because he wrote down only what he remembered. And that`s the problem with most Polish "documents" - we better should say memories - written after the Polish campaign. There is no serious comparison to German war diaries of the units.
9.We do not know any other mission flown by Polish fighters on this day. But we can assume there weren`t other missions flown, because Polish fighter units were constantly on the move in those days and almost completely without fuel.

The dates of missions, losses and victories in German war diaries are highly accurate. You cannot place the date at 13.9. because somebody remembered after many years it was 13.9.
So you furtheron mean your story fits perfectly?

Marius

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Marius
There is no evidence that 114 EM met enemy aircraft. Ferić also described the patrol and had not mention any combats. Fullstop.
We shall see.
The one does not need to provide a quote to provide views of someone.
In Polish there is no need to add a numeral. If there is a mention of a fighter it does mean a fighter and not fighters.
The author was apparently not awared of Wróblewski's account.
Did not need to.
Wróblewski wrote: "My only probably shot down aircraft was Heinkel He 111 on 13 September. It was this way - Łuszczów. We arrived previous day, in that constant travel through Poland, from Ostrożec. (...) At the time of lunch, when there was nobody by aircraft, I make a decision. I will fly - no doubt I will catch something, this is a time of daily bombing.
Take off - I fly over Lublin. (...)"
According to other documents and accounts, 111 EM indeed moved to Łuszczów from Ostrożec on 12 September but according to some documents, the same evening moved to nearby Jabłonna. Some aircraft may have actually remained at Łuszczów and move on the next day. Cynk assumed, as clearly stated in his book, that Wróblewski actually intercepted He 111 of KG55 but this is his misinterpretation.
Wróblewski: "(...) I am catching the last aircraft. I am closing to about 80-100m. Nobody is shooting from the aircraft as yet. I already see contrails from the neighbouring ones. They are shooting. Finally I open fire. I am firing two bursts - o happinness - smoke is emmitting from the starboard engine and Heinkel is slopping on the right. With most curiousity I am looking what will happen. I see how Heinkel, smoking badly and shalowly diving, went forward - likely applied full power. I am still shooting but the distance is much greater. I am still shooting and I am following the wounded escaping Heinkel into the middle of the formation. (...) And Heinkel went, perhaps dying, but my despair is great - only a probable..."
I see no confirmation of your comments.
As I have noted previously, you have no idea about Bajan' commission. At the time corrections were supplied, Wróblewski was already dead.
It seems memories were sometimes better than the documents.
Indeed and it is noted by Wróblewski himself.
Wróblewski remembered it already in 1939, when he was filing the account. 13 is not an ordinary date. IIRC Reither also remembered it 13 September. It is further confirmed by Luftwaffe loss list, that mentions one Do 17E lost on 13 September due to fighters, although in Sandomierz area, which is some 80 kms SW Lublin - no Polish claims there.
Accuracy of diaries? Sorry!
Yes, everything fits perfectly. The problem is that you are inventing history instead of researching it. That is why I find your research not trustworthy.
I find further discussion with you a waste of time.
Bye

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Franek,

I`am sorry, but you are really using the loss list of the Generalquartiermeister to confirm your story?! This document isn`t a war diary. It is a simple inaccurate loss list of the High Command with many gaps and errors.
The loss of the Do 17 of KG 77 was indeed noted there a day later (as many others). This conclusion is logical because all other documents are stating the 12.9.; the war diary of KG 77 (most accurate document!) as well as for example the loss lists of Luftflottenkommando 4. I quote:

Verlustmeldung vom 12.9.39.
...
A2., 1. Uffz Meyer to Bergte II./KG 77 F, 2. Ltn.Reither II./KG 77 B, 3. Uffz. Bergs II./KG 77 BF. Weiteres noch nicht bekannt.

BA/MA Freiburg, RL 7/460

I don`t know what your problem is, but you will never confirm that a German document could be more accurate than Polish (in this case even many documents). And after that you will never confirm that your story could be wrong. It seems to be a kind of war against Germans. Or Polish honour is forbidding it or the hell knows what it is.

Furthermore I was asking you for the Polish fighter unit which flew the sortie against the German formation, because you are doing as you would had a better information here. But apparently you haven`t. It is just bla, bla, bla...
But the best argument is that the author of the Polish article had no need to look at any German document (!). Very good Franek. I cannot discuss on on a such primitive level.
I quit.

Marius

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

Marius
Perhaps not everything was erroneous.
Independent accounts of Reither and Wróblewski, GQ loss list all indicating 13 September. I find this a little bit weird coincidence.
I know. ;)
I have not invented story of Wróblewski (coming from Ferić's diary at PISM, London and quoted by Cynk) nor Reither (published in SP magazine). You have invented a combat of 114 EM by manipulating narrative based on Kowalczyk's diary (PISM/Cynk). If pointing your errors is a war or anti-Germanism, then yes, please.
I know better - there is no information of any Polish unit engaging German aircraft in Lublin area at the time! I CANNOT PROVIDE A PROOF FOR SOMETHING THAT DID NOT HAPPEN!
Well, an explanation for other readers.
The article, published in early 1990s, was about friendship between Reither and Czapliński (or Czaplicki?), OC for Lublin district. The article (as I remember, I have read it a few years ago) did not contain first hand accounts but described the events from the third person's view. It was described that Reither was downed by a fighter in Lublin area on 13 (IIRC) September, taken POW and brought to Czapliński. He provided them with escort and send to a prison or somewhere like that. When POWs left the building a mob appeared and wanted to lynch them - it was just after the German raid. Then Czapliński appeared and made a speach, that such behaviour is inapropriate to say the least and that Poles are civilised nation that seeks no revenge and does care about POWs. People went away and the German crew was escorted to prison.
Post-war Reither contacted Czapliński and expressed him his gratitude for saving his life. They remained in touch until Czapliński's death, and then Reither corresponded with a son of Czapliński, presumably until he passed away a few years ago.
I do not remember the date but I remember that it struck me that Reither's account fitted perfectly to Wróblewski's one, so I am certain it was 13 September.
I do not see a slightest point of using any bloody German documents in such an article.
Bye

Re: Lent papers - a question
 

OK, you guys have done it again. I am locking this thread.

In spite of the good contributions both of you have made in the past and certainly have the potential to do in the future, This Board is not the place for these meaningless personal attacks on each other's information and/or beliefs. This is a waste of everyone's time and Board space. I do not care what gripes either of you have with the other, but TAKE IT OFF THIS BOARD.

If I see one more thread started by either of you that contains even a hint of a personal attack, I will request that Ruy ban you from the Board for 60 days.