Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

At Ubi's IL2 Sturmovik forum there was an interesting story upon which some of you might be able to shed further light before I try to reinvent the wheel.

To quote:

The TV bit should indicate quite some exposure.

This version of the story indicates hostilities between Germans and Soviets, German control of Koenigsberg (or at least part there of) and the use of King Cobra's.

Of course the escape in a V1 launcher Heinkel is icing on the cake!!

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Ruy
This recalls old Russian jokes about Radio Yerevan.
A group of Soviet POWs escaped from Peenemuende on He 111 and crashed behind own lines. All of them were sent to filtration camps and then to ordinary camps as traitors (standard procedure for POWs), only part of them surviving the latter. I do not remeber their names, date nor other details but perhaps our Russian friends can fill the gap.
Unless proven by documents or photos, service of P-63s on the eastern front should be considered a myth to say the least.

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

According to Wikipedia, the "evidence" that p-63 saw service on the eastern front was identification by pilots and flak crews (no official reports or photos) and the memoirs of "a member of Pokryshkin's squadron who published his memiors in the '90s". I have no idea who this pilot would be, if these memoirs are reliable, or if they are even available in English.

About the story of a group of escaped POWs and the He 111: if it was real, wouldn't there be several feature motion pictures made by now? This story makes the Great Escape seem like a stroll in the park.

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

That was famous Mikhail Devyatayev's escape. He was, as I remember, the sole aviator in that group of POWs. Devyatayev was former Airacibra pilot of 104 Gv.IAP from Pokryshkin's 9 Gv.IAD.

BTW, the He111, on what they escaped, REALLY was a V1 launcher! :p

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Fascinating, thanks!

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Not exactly Franek, that Soviet pilots (forget his name) was sent to prison because no one believe his story, "what ? you just saw a airplane on the airport, and you just aboard it and flew to ourside, come on ! You German master should give you a more credible cover story !", however he was released after the capture German documents verify his story, later he became a test pliot and was award Gold star of Hero of Soviet Union in 50's

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Josh Osborne, that incident actually was simple than thought,Mikhail Devyatayev managed to disguised his pilot identidy in POW camp, German in the POW camps did not he could fly an airplane, and he was sent to an island as a labor to build and maintain the German airport, one day, when he and other 9 Soviet POWs found a He-111 on the runway when they were working, and there were no Germans around, so that Devyatayev and his fellows quicky take a vote and decide to take the risk( a risk indeed, Devyatayev was a fighter pilot, never flew a mulit-eninge airplane before !), then they simply lined up, climbed into the He-111, start the engine and took off, Germans realised what was happening only too late, and before the Flak could open fire, they were gone.
In this case, I do not blame those NKVD guys found hard to believe Devyatayev's story

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Marsyao, the suspicious circumstances of the escape certainly didn't help, but all former Soviet POWs went to the gulag after the war, since Stalin considered them "contaminated" by "western influences". Even members of the Lucy spy ring, who did more than anyone to help the Soviets win the war, were sent to the gulag.

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Indeed. I had a chance to ask a question to Baltic Fleet ace Golubyev, who was downed, wounded and taken POW. Asked about his treatment after the return to the SU, he just wryly commented - it was a bitter time.
Some people tend to show SU as a pretty ordinary country led by similar rules as any other. Well, their choice but there are small differencies.

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

2 Josh and Franek

You're just repeat a traditional stereotypes.


>but all former Soviet POWs went to the gulag after the war,

Could you please give us the examples at least?

Devyatayev wasn't sent to any gulag camp ever. Soviet POWs were being sent to filtration camps, where their cases were investigated. Usually such filtration procedure lasted for 1-3 months. The bulk of POWs successfully survived it and were released (including Devyatayev). I know many who returned to their units after the war.

(The fate of former Hiwi and ROA members was poor, though, of course).

The life of former Soviet POW wasn't easy in SU after the war (usually they had troubles to take a job or in career), but that wasn't equal to gulag camps.


> since Stalin considered them "contaminated" by "western influences".

No comments.


>Indeed. I had a chance to ask a question to Baltic Fleet ace Golubyev, who was downed, wounded and taken POW. Asked about his treatment after the return to the SU, he just wryly commented - it was a bitter time.

Franek, could you please to tell what Golubev you are talking about?

Vasiliy Fyodorovich Golubev?


>Some people tend to show SU as a pretty ordinary country led by similar rules as any other. Well, their choice but there are small differencies.

May I reasseble your sentence?:
"Some people tend to show SU as ugly evil country led by awful rules... Well, their choice but there are small differencies."

There's nothing black or white in history.

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

I am finding this saga most interesting! Can anyone put a date to the incident? And what unit did the He111 come from? Was it really carrying two V-1s when stolen?

I eagerly await the next instalment!!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Josh Osborne, you info is not correct,as Andrey said above, in the war time, the most of the liberated Soviet POWs were sent back to their units, and after the war, they were released and return home

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

>I am finding this saga most interesting! Can anyone put a date to the incident?

February 8, 1945.


> And what unit did the He111 come from?

Luftwaffe researchers could guess.

According Soviet side descriptions Heinkel (He 111H-22???) belonged to some Kdo. attached to Penemunde testing centre. In some publications commander of this detachment named as Oblt. Carl-Heinz Graudenz (???).


> Was it really carrying two V-1s when stolen?

It seems yes. At least something wich looked like.

Try an online-translators:

http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/pg.pl...&page=devataev

http://www.rednews.ru/article.phtml?...y=111=1&id=120

http://star-v.narod.ru/heroes/article1.htm

http://otvaga.vif2.ru/Otvaga/heroes/hero_030.htm

http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ac...devyataev.html

http://skydive1.h12.ru/aviation/su.p...00001031.shtml

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

I admit that I was wrong when I said "all SU former POWs". I should have said "some". Surely some were sent back to their units. Indisputably, some were sent to the gulag for no other crime than having been exposed to "western culture" even as a prisoner. Therefore, the fact that the hero of the He 111 escape was sent to the gulag was not due only to the suspicious circumstances. He was one of many tragic cases of a SU POWs who were victimized first by the Nazis, and then by their own government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
QUOTE
After WWII the number of inmates in prison camps and colonies rose again sharply and reached the number of approximately 2.5 million people by the early 1950s (about 1.7 millions of whom in camps). While some of these were deserters and war criminals, there were also repatriated Russians prisoners of war and "Eastern workers", who were universally accused of treason and "cooperation with an enemy" (formally, they did work for Nazis). Large numbers of civilians from the Russian territories which came under foreign occupation, as well as from the territories annexed by the Soviet Union after the war were also sent there. It was not uncommon for the survivors of Nazi camps to be transported directly to the Soviet labour camps.
UNQUOTE

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Josh Osborne, we are sure of out of topic here, but here is something you may found interesting, that was from "Axis history forum":

During the war most pows went straight back into the ranks. The vast majority of liberated Soviet pows after the war were reassigned to the Red Army, after screening. And I think people have tended to get confused between the screening camps and the gulags. Screening was intended initially to take 10 days. It later took around 2 months to process an individual (statements, story of captivity, cross-checking against other accounts and, if suspicious, interrogation). There's been quite a lot of research about this recently, most of it being done by Zemskov, Polian and Sevjakov. I've taken this from Polian (Deportiert nach Hause).

Of 4,400,901 citizens of the Soviet Union repatriated by 1 March 1946, 1,569,572 were former prisoners of war.

Of the total repatriated 4,199,488 had been filtered by 1 March (1,539,475 of them pows) and 57.8% had been released to go home, 19.1% had been reassigned to army units, 14.5% were working in reconstruction units, 6.5% (272,867 people) had been detained in NKVD camps and 2.1% were working in special teams dismantling industrial sites in Poland and germany for transport to the USSR.

Of the former pows 281,780 (18,3%) were sent home, 659,190 (42,8%) were placed in reserve units of the Red Army, 344,448 (22,3%) were placed in labour battalions and 226,127 (14,6%) were handed over to the NKVD. The other 27,930 (1,81%) were used in the dismantling units.


The released pows were mostly assigned to the Red Army. Thus 268,794 repatriated indiduals (some pows, some civilian workers) were assigned to reserve units in 1944, 779,406 in 1945 and 7,725 in 1946 (a total of 1,055,925). Most of the other pows went to construction battalions. Soviet documents show that construction battalions accounted for 344,448 released pows. Most of these batallions, which were run on military lines, were disbanded in September 1946.


Polian gives figures to show that the NKVD received 272,867 individuals by 1 March 1946. Sevjakov puts the figure at 338,107 of which 55,015 were civilians. The military special prisoners were classified by an order of Golikov and Chrulev on 18 January 1945 and were mainly pows who had been in German military or police units (the term Vlasovites covered most German military units composed of Soviet citizens for the Soviet authorities). A further 148,079 prisoners arrived in these camps up to 1947, most of them repatriated by agreement with the Americans or British.

So you can see that the idea that all pows returned to the Soviet Union were handed over to the NKVD for imprisonment or execution is an absolute myth. Of the prisoners of war retaken by the Soviets just over 14% were sentenced for punishment. Considering the number of Soviet citizens in German uniform that's not an especially huge amount (and I think it'd do you good to see how any European country dealt with collaborators - none of them were welcomed home).

And of course pows were asked questions during filtration. Numbers of camp polizei, collaborators and others were attempting to pass themselves off as pows. And, of course, Soviet authorities wanted to find those responsible and asked questions to find out. You can read Temkin's memoirs - he gives a complete account of his NKVD debriefing. And he was no friend of the SU - he emigrated in the 1960s. Many of the questions were designed to check which units guarded which prisoners so the guilty officers could be found - just as the Americans wanted to find

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Bravo, Marsyao! I'd be too lazy to do such a detailed answer. More so I still doubt it will convince the opponents.

>Therefore, the fact that the hero of the He 111 escape was sent to the
gulag was not due only to the suspicious circumstances.

Again. Devyatayev was NOT sent to any gulag. Read all his interviews and last publications. The tale about his gulag experience was created in late 80s - early 90s, when such stories were fashionable.

Answering your post and private message: I'm quite good in Soviet Air force history, and concern myself with VVS KBF (Red Banner Baltic Fleet Air Force) history. I know the fates of many former POWs, had read a lot of books, interviews (and interviewed some by myself) and other materials and I still can't give you a name of the pilot, who was really sent to gulag camp after Nazi camp.

If you know someone - please, give me a name.


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

Sorry, but this is not a serious reference. Wikipedia is an usual WWW trash can - popular mass plebs' history. It could be a good elementary reading, but not a serious reference in discussion.

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

The He 111 could not carry two V-1s - poor thing was overloaded enough with one. If it was carrying two "somethings" then they were something else. None of which detracts from the achievement.

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Thank Marsyao for this interesting info.
I can give a weak support to You, because in 80s I read some WWII Finnish interrogation reports on Soviet defectors interrogations. Few of them had told that they had made unsuccessful defection attempts before the successful one. When they had been caught they had got hard labour sentences but usually after a few months these were suspended and they were then sent to labour battalions or even back to front line with a hint that their case would be reconsidered after the war. So even the caught defectors were not shot out of hand in Red Army, at least not at Lake Onega area, which probably suffered more than average lack of troops in 1942-43.
Andrey, the story of Devyatayev’s gulag sentence is older, at least here in Finland. I heard or read the story in 70s.

Juha

P-63 Kingcobra in VVS in Europe 1945!
 

I think that the thread below has already come rather far from the original, interesting topic concerning the possible appearance of Soviet P-63 Kingcobras in Eastern Europe in WW II. I do not want to became involved in the unproductive yes-no poltical debate, but would merely want to return to the original problem.

According to a biographical article about the Soviet fighter ace V.S.Yeliseyev (Hero of RF 6 September 1996) published in the well-known Russian aviation journal MIR AVIATSII no. 3/1999 6 IAK (Fighter Aviation Corps of 16 Air Army) received 6 (six) Kingcobras in spring 1945. One of these Kingcobras was flown by Vladimir Yeliseyev (then serving in 67 Guards IAP, which was ex-436 IAP) during the Battle of Berlin from March 1945. As this article (written by Vladimir Ratkin) refers explicitely also to Yeliseyevs´s previous Airacobra-missions misidentification is excluded. The article is furthermore based on TsAMO-documents (war diary of 67 GIAP etc.). In my book "Red Stars Vol.4" I also indicated this use of Kingcobras by VVS in the European theatre, but my remarks seem to have passed unnoticed.
Carl

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

I would like to apologize for sidetracking this thread by making a political comment in a non-political thread, that was a mistake I will try not to repeat.

As to the fate of returning SU POWs, I see now that I was misled by a history book that I bought in '88 which contained incorrect information, information which unfortunately has been repeated in a lot of internet sources. Thanks to marsyao for the informative post. Someday I will have to make a trip to the library and update my information.

Re: P-63 Kingcobra in VVS in Europe 1945!
 

Thanks Carl-Frederik! This answers a question I have been asking for a long time.

Re: P-63 Kingcobra in VVS in Europe 1945!
 

Hello, Carl!
Don't know where Vladimir took this data, but THERE ARE NOT ANY 'Combat diaries' or any else operative chronical docs in 67 GIAP fund in TsAMO, that's what I know exactly. In 273 IAD and 6 IAK funds I did not found any references about 'P-63' or 'Kingkobra'... So that fact still very doubtful for me.

Regards,
MB

Re: P-63 Kingcobra in VVS in Europe 1945!
 

Mihail,
the explicite references in the article I mentioned are:

TsAMO f. 67 GIAP, op. 519113, d.1; f. 5 GIAD, op.1, d.4, f. 273 IAD, op.1, d.74 and 108. If you did check all these documenst without finding references to Yeliseyev´s Kingcobra, then how did Vladimir Ratkin come to his conclusions?

BTW - congratulations on your birthday!
Carl

Re: P-63 Kingcobra in VVS in Europe 1945!
 

Hmmm...

f. 67 GIAP, op. 519113 - it's 'Historical Formular', not War Diary ;)

Don't understand what for there is 5 GIAD - different regiments, different front, different corps... Cant found now what are those documents of 273 IAD, will check my records later.

Re: P-63 Kingcobra in VVS in Europe 1945!
 

Another bump for the real Kingcobra thread!

Re: Soviet P-63 pilot, escaping with He 111 w.V1(s)
 

Made some changes to the thread that may or may not do the trick, depending on your views.

Those who wish to continue with Annie Applebaum can switch to:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=3195

It may come as a surprise to a few people, but I do not read every post, nor monitor the forum 24/7...