Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Here is one of the Polish Bf109G10 from 318 Polish Fighter Division from Treviso March 1946

http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samolo...hmitt-Me-109G2

More photos and very interesting article in Polish:
http://www.polishairforce.pl/messerschmitt.html

Source:
Zmyślony W. ”Polski Messerschmitt Bf 109”. ”Polskie Siły Powietrzne w II wojnie światowej”.


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By the way:

Dears Collegues,

I still looking for camuflage, painting and old photos with Bf109 G10 made by Erla (Werk Nr's: 490130-399) which could belong to JG3 and other units.
Maybe somebody have something new from ebay, private collection, ... etc.

Best regards,

Kris

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Kris,

this is Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 782 104 (?) "Crna 4", flown by deserting pilot Vladimir Sandtner, 15 (Croat)./JG 52, Falconara, 16 April 1945. The W.Nr. is not fully known: it was reported in the British Report as W.Nr. 2104.

Cheers
Marc

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

YES

Lt. Vladimir Sandtner (on Bf 109G-10, "black 4") and
Lt. Josip Cekovic (on Bf 109G-14, "black 10")

both pilots deserted the same day. Numebers I don't know.

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Not a G-10 but an G-14/AS like Marc wrote ...

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

So probably I must inform author of text about small update of article :)

Thanks for info.

What is the source of this information with another type ?

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Rasmussen is an authority in this field, so his word would and should suffice...

Anyway, not to remember again our last exchange, but remember when I wrote...

That was one of the things "discovered" in the past years, when it was found that, apart from a small circular hatch on the starboard side of the cowl being in a lower rather than upper position, most of the G-14/AS produced (at least all of those producec by MTT, apparently) had a look that was almost identical to that of a "classic" G-10, or at least how it had been represented in the past twenty years.

It's a part of the same process which identified the existence of the Erla G-10s and whose published sources are roughly the same evidenced earlier. Even here, though, most of the process of research and study has been made and perfected on the web, rather than on printed paper, the reasons for that have been already dealt with...

Sorry man, it is a fruit of the same tree...

P.S. I am also adding a quote of one posts of mine on the same subject (literally) of three years ago...

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

A different source addresses this Bf109 as G-10 WNr 152104 from 2.(kroat)/JGr. So the Bf109G-10 variant can be excluded with certainty.
Was the croatian Jagdgruppe still included in JG52 at that time and not in a somewhat autonomous status?
Btw, Cekovic (Black 10) deserted to Jesi airfield occupied by the RAF. Falconara was an US a/F afaik.
Does somebody know the circumstances of this change? I remember some alcoholic beverages being part of the "deal"...

Regards

Roland

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

More about that case in: "Croatian Aces" from Osprey Publ.
h.

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

An alcoholic transaction indeed...!

This is how the Polish veteran Jan Preihs remembers that episode in his memories...

"...Last base of No.318 Squadron was Tisano near Udine. It was just after May 6, 1945. One day "Wolodzia" Berezecki - doing CO's duty – asked me to fly with him to Jesi for a meeting of commanders. We flew a Fairchild. We landed near a damaged hanger and "Wolodzia" went to the meeting. We expected a short meeting so I stayed on the airfield to supervise refuleling of our plane. It was quickly refueled by two American soldiers.
I was sitting on a back sit of our Fairchild as they asked me:
- Hey, Captain. You wouldn't have by any chance a bottle of Whisky by you, would you?
- No - I said.
- We have a business. Are you interested in two German planes?
- What are they doing here?
One of the Yankees led me to the damaged hanger. I saw two planes next to a wall. They were covered by dust. I saw a German marking on one of them.
- This is a Me 109 - I said surprised.
- Yes sir, that's what it is.
I came near. It was a brand new plane. With fresh paint. The second was a Bucker. This one wasn't so new.
The Yankee explained that the planes came to Yesi on a lorry just one day earlier.
Suddenly arrived a car. Its driver returned for S/L Berezecki's portfolio.
He left it in the Fairchild. I decided to provide it personally.
The meeting was in a hotel. I explained "Wolodzia" my plan and he accepted it. We went to radio room. "Wolodzia" called to our base, to "Felek" Gadomski.
- Please, find a pilot who want to fly a Me 109 to Tisano - said Berezecki.
There was an another problem - the Whisky.
Fortunately, "Wolodzia" met an American-Polish in a bar. He was a barman and an American soldier from Chicago. He saw a "Poland" on Berezecki uniform's shoulder and was so happy to meet a Pole so he gave "Wolodzia" two bottles of bourbon.
I was in Tisano a half hour later. "Felek" found a volunteer - Lt.Stramik. He was one of the youngest squadron's pilots.
We returned to Yesi. I "paid" for the planes.
Stramik had nothing but enthusiasm to fly the Messerchmitt. Fortunately, we found a German manual in the cockpit. I regretted I didn't learn the language in a school. "Wolodzia" returned two hours later. He was a former student of Paris Sorbona and spoke French, but he didn't speak German.
Finaly we read a little.
We refuelled the three planes and started to prepare to take off. Stramik sat into the cockpit and tried to start engine. It started with no problem. Except black smokes from the engine. We refuelled the Me 109 using 100 octan fuel, but it was earlier used with syntetic gas. Therefore the clouds of black smoke.
Fortunately, the Bucker was propelled by normal gas. So I had no problem with it. "Wolodzia" flew our Fairchild.
The Messerschmitt landed safely in our base.
Unfortunately, it vanished next day. Bucker was used a bit longer by our pilots."

P.S. The plane ended as a possession of Wing Commander James E. Storrar (239 Wing RAF from January 1946 to April 1947) who "owned" also a defected Bulgarian Yak-9M, in RAF markings and personal codes too...

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Now that's history, Ferdinando!

Thanks for this mind boggling acquisition process... would love to do it nowadays;-))

Marc

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Gentleman,

may I add my two cents?

The aircraft certainly is no Erla G-10 as it has the curved engine-fairings on both sides of the fuselage. Erla G-10 had a different solution for the left side.

As far as the original german camo is discernable, it looks pretty much like standard late war MTT-Regensburg. I presume it being a G-14 AS.

Werknummer 152.104 can be ruled out, as Werknummernblock 152.xxx belongs to Erla G-10/R6s and AFAIK there were no Werknummern allocated for 152.1xx anyway. Rasmussen may be able to confirm this.

The same is true for Werknummer 782.104. The 782.1xx block from MTT-Regensburg started only at 782.129 running to 782.275. This aircraft were all Bf 109 G-6s (!) with only two G-14s interspred.

Regards

Carl

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Charles, is this Werk.-Nr. a typo (it is in the NVM)?
1945-02-08, 5./Erg.JG 1, Bf 109G-6, 782105, 8 weiße, Raum Küstrin, Unbekannt um 10.30 uhr. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Gefr Toifl, Karl, vermißt

Matti

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Correct, there wasn't any Erla G-10 in a 152.1xxx batch ...

Regards
Rasmussen

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Seems there is a quite solid block formed with numbers a bit less than 782000, nd a bit after, at least from 781981 to 782011 more than a dozen of "Treffer" in that range, one at least owned by Mtt

Rémi

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Hello Matti,

AFAIK we have losses reported up to WNr. 782006 and there is a ULTRA report on WNr. 782011. Then we have a gap, the next WNr. is 782130, followed by a great amount of cosecutive WNr. reported. This is remarkably according with the Werknummer-batches running from 781.981 to 782.011 (all G-6) and 782.129 to 782.275 (source: original MTT-Regensburg production-plans).

My copy of the WASt-report on Gefr Toifl is very hard to read, it may be 782.105 or 782.185. What so ever, I think 782.105 should be not correct.

Greetings

Carl

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

130000 – 130500 ~ Mtt-Regensburg G-10 - small main/long fixed tailwheel
150700 – 151000 ~ Erla G-10
151500 – 152000 ~ Erla G-10
490000 – 490800 ~ Erla G-10 - many were fitted with DB 605/AS - small main/long fixed tailwheel
491000 – 491600 ~ Erla G-10 - small main/long fixed tailwheel
610300 – 610600 ~ WNF G-10
610900 – 611000 ~ WNF G-10
611900 – 612000 ~ WNF G-10
612700 – 613000 ~ WNF G-10
613000 – 613300 ~ WNF G-10
770000 – 770400 ~ WNF G-10 - majority equipped with Rb50/30 camera
770900 – 771000 ~ WNF G-10 - majority equipped with Rb50/30 camera
771000 – 771200 ~ WNF G-10 - majority equipped with Rb50/30 camera

Erla-Leipzig
460322 to 460371
460645 to 461378 - Bf109G-14/AS
460372 to 460644 - Bf109G-14 & Bf109G-6/MW
461379 to 461999 - Bf109G-14
462632 to 463006 - Bf109G-14
463110 to 463248 - Bf109G-14
464047 to 464660 - Bf109G-14
464814 to 464924 - Bf109G-14
465250 to 465982 - Bf109G-14
WNF
510000 to 510010 - Bf109G-14/AS
510640 to 510999 - Bf109G-14/U4 & Bf109G-6/U4
511000 to 511905 - Bf109G-14/AS
512115 to 512650 - Bf109G-14/AS
Mtt-Reg
780301 to 780880 - Bf109G-14/AS Sept-Oct'44
780881 to 780999 - majority Bf109G-14/AS to Aug'44
781000 to 781210 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept'44
781220 to 781999 - Bf109G-14/AS & unknown number Bf109G-14
782000 to 782280 - Bf109G-14/AS & unknown number Bf109G-14
782281 to 782430 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept'44
782750 to 783999 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept-Oct'44
784001 to 784200 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept'44
784730 to 784999 - majority Bf109G-14/AS finished Sept'44
785000 to 785145 - majority Bf109G-14/AS from Oct'44
785146 to 785170 - Bf109G-14/AS from Oct'44
785175 to 785200 - majority Bf109G-14/AS from Nov'44
785600 to 785725 - majority Bf109G-14, Nov'44
785726 to 785999 - majority Bf109G-14/AS, Nov-Dec'44
786300 to 786540 - majority Bf109G-14/AS, Jan'45
787445 to 787495 - majority Bf109G-14/AS, Feb'45

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Also, adding to the posts of Rasmussen and Charles Bavaroise, it is worth to add that there is a single detail that identify this aircraft as a G-14/AS and nothing else.

The small round hatch just below the hole for the starting crank was the access to the cold weather starting device, which was in that position on the DB 605A and AS only.

On the DB 605D the device was moved slightly upwards so that it was level with the starting crank hole. Being able to see where it is allows to determine if the plane was engined with a DB 605D or not.

Of course, on the "Black 4" it clearly is in the lower position...

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

Yes the hatch is true, I think also the lower hatch with DB605D was welded shut, as seen on some foto. Also 'chin bulges' on G-14/AS, also true that it was the lower cowl available at time. I think there were 3 cowls, Type 100, Type 110, & a rare very specific one for port side G-6/AS Type 090.

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

The gaps might be due to the air attack from 21st July 1944 on the Mtt Regensburg-Prüfening and Obertraubling factories. Two production hangars full with Bf109s of an advanced and final assembly status had been destroyed almost completely

Regards

Roland

Re: Bf109 G-10 late war - but very interesting camo !
 

I have now checked the WNr, of Gefr Toifl's Bf 109 from the original NVM at WASt. It is definitely 782105. Maybe we should seriously consider Roland's explanation for the "missing" numbers.

Matti