Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hello,



Among the EoE WG (Working Group) our experts have been discussing the color profile project as it relates to the Bf109F-1, which was just coming into service with JG51 during the last quarter of 1940. We're trying to decide if anyone flying F-1s during this period merits a color profile for their Stab section or Staffel during that period of time. The obvious question arises about the F-1 of Werner Mölders during this period. There are many photos available of the F-1 that he apparently flew during that period, factory coded SG+GW, WNr5628, but there are none that I know of FOR CERTAIN that carried his Gesch Kde stab markings on this a/c before the end of the year. There are photos with the factory code in black and with the factory code painted out, but none that I know of that show this a/c with Stab markings in place before the end of the year. During this period, his a/c clearly showed his full scoreboard on the rudder, which was revised as his score increased. Does anyone have any proof one way or another that this a/c actually carried Stab markings at any time during this period? If he didn't, does anyone have any hard info as to why he didn't have his stab markings painted on this F-1? We know that his a/c did eventually carry a full set of Gesch Kde markings at least by early 1941.



Who can help here?



Regards,



Larry Hickey

EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Larry
I think I might have a photo-be in touch when I get home
Chris

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Chris,

Will await your return.

Larry

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

This?

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/...en/molders.jpg

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Oberst,

Excellent photo, but do you have a firm date for this? The person in the photos isn't wearing heavy clothing, so could be before the dead of winter set in. Does the rudder marking tell us when this was?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project coordinator

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Firm date no. Either 16th or 26th of October. Weather was cloud and widespread drizzle. I could be wrong on date however.

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Oberst

Is your photo clear enough to count the victories on the tail?

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

No, but a guess would be 28-35ish. Again, just a guess.

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

I think it's closer to 60 ish...

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Other close ups of his rudder show that the first 4 full rows equal 66 kills. Which would date this photo as 1941.

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Do you have source for the rudder foto for this ME 109 F1? Becouse even figure bottom two rows have 12 second from top 10 top 6, thats 40 kills. How big is this ME 109 F1 rudder(?). I have been a big fan of Molders aircraft.

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

The top row has twelve kill markings the next has more because there is more space with even more space for the next row....and so on...

12 top row
16
18
20
7

First photo: http://www.network54.com/Forum/14967...09+F-1+and+F-2

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hello and thank you. Between the foto in this thread, and the one in your link, its a different rudder. I point your direction to the very top of the rudder in foto above. See kill marks? But I agree probably more then 35 ish.

Kindest Regards.

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Yes, I agree they are in a slightly different position but I was posting to show just how many could be crammed onto a rudder.

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

In close-ups of this rudder (which is yellow), 56 marks can be counted in the top 4 rows. Google "moelders rudder" images and a few pop up.

Don

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Mr.Pearson,

With great respect I google as you say, found many rudders, none with concrete dates. Correction, found I plastic model rudder, but again no foto to back up.

So I see with foto above as best possibilty.

This is fasinating subject!

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Guys

I have looked in the book Mölders by Obermaier/Held and checking the rudder on page 129 (victory kills 51 visible), that rudder shows small roundels above the victory bars. They don't appear on Oberst photo, which leads me to believe the photo by Oberst is later. On page 132 the same aircraft shows 54 victories, again with roundels above the bars.
Mölders only scored 1 more victory in 1940, and that was Dec 1st. After that Mölders had a couple of months winter holiday and was not back again until ca February 1941. I don't know exactly when he received his new F-2, but on or about June 10, 1941 there is a sphoto on page 155 which matches Oberst photo and carries 68 victory bars without any roundels above the bars.

Having said all this I believe, unfortunately for Larry, that Oberst photo shows Mölders 109F sometime during ther spring of 1940 carrying some 60+ victory bars.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hi Stig, do the photos you mention showing 51 and 54 victories on the rudder give any indication as to whether Geschwaderstab markings are applied to the aircraft? :)

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

How can one tell an F-1 from an F-2?

When did he receive the F-2?

Do we have a Werk No. for the F-2?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

hello
well Molders..had 56 dec 29th 40-this dates around jan feb 41 snow fell feb 41

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

The Golden question: ...

Did all F-1s have the Emil style wing roots?

Question about the markings on the Bf 109 F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hello guys

Lynn Ritger in The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Part 2 states that the differences between the F-1 and F-2 consisted of:

• MG/FF instead of MG 151/20
• Wing root fillets attached with a riveted strip such as the Emil
• Wingtip navigation lights covered by a small colored glass shield over the bulbs rather than a clear conformal Plexiglas cover (again, similar to the Emil)
• Port exhausts lack exhaust deflection shield

Unfortunately, some of these characteristics can be found on early production F-2 fighters, particularly those built by WNF in the 6651 through 6822 block. Therefore, the only ironclad way of identifying a F-1 is by the werknummer, a cockpit photograph showing the MG/FF enclosed by a zippered canvas cover or the riveted wing root fillet fitted to only the earliest aircraft.

Here are a pair of very poor quality photographs that I have been able to find of the fighter flown by Mölders in the time period that is being discussed. The first shows the rudder marked with 54 victories and the Stammkennzeichen partially painted over. Note that this rudder had roundels and victory date information painted on and the photograph was possibly taken in November 1940 as the JG 51 book by Stipdonk and Meyer includes a close up of this rudder with the identical number of victory markings that according to the caption was taken that month. The second photograph was purportedly taken on 12 March 1941 and shows the aircraft with 61 victories marked on the rudder according to the caption in the JG 51 book by Weal. Note that the JG 51 Falcon/Buzzard badge has not been painted on as according to Weal this appeared in mid-April 1941. My apologies for the very poor quality of the photographs.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Thank you Leo for your precisions. :)

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Clint

A bit late, but no the photos in the Mölders book just shows the extreme tail unit and nothing else.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Thank you

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hello,

Just to summarize here, I don't think that we've determined here that there are any photos that confirm that the Mölders Bf109F-1 carried a full set of Gesch Kde markings at any time in 1940. Is that still where we are, or did I miss something?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hi Larry,
That is eaxactly where we stand for the moment at LEMB as well:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...topic=16599&hl=
Br
Goran

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

49th, 50th, & 51st victories by october 22, 1940. So it MAY be possible that the foto I posted (Me-109F-4) could have been taken in last months of 1940. I take another look at rudder, victories could be anywhere from 45-60 (not clear enough).

Stig, can you post your foto to know for sure, thanks.

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Oberst

Sorry I don't have any photos myself, I looked in a book about Mölders.
However I differ from your opinion especially if you are talking about an F-4, they were not in production in 1940 and your photo is then completely impossible in 1940.

I doubt Mölders got anything else than a F-1 in late 1940. I also believe the aircraft which he scored his 54th victory in was an E-model.

To me it looks like he flew in late 1940 in a sloppily overpainted F-1 and while he is on a winter holiday it gets painted in his traditional Geschwader marking sometime in 1941.

Cheers
Stig

Question about the markings on the Bf 109 F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hi guys

Lynn Ritger in The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Part 2 writes that the first production Bf 109 F-1 (W.Nr. 5628) was sent to Mölders for service testing at the beginning of October 1940. His first victories with it were claimed on 22 October (49-51) and 25 October (52-53) according to this source. In the JG 51 book by Stipdonk and Meyer there is a photograph of his fighter which was taken on 15 April 1941 and shows the rudder marked with 63 victories including roundels according to the caption. In the JG 51 book by Weal there is a photograph of the rudder of his fighter taken on 16 April 1941 according to the caption and which is marked with 65 victory bars including roundels and victory date information. In summery, the latest photograph of 1940 (possibly November 1940) shows the Stammkennzeichen partially painted over and 54 victories and the earliest of 1941 (12 March 1941) shows the Geschwaderkommodore markings applied and 61 victories. I agree that the photograph that Oberst posted is from 1941, possibly later than mid-April as the Geschwader emblem has been added.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Thanks Leo, you are a cornicopia of information!

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Thanks Leo

The problem I, at least seems to have, is that I can't count the victories on the tail of the overpainted aircraft you refer to. But from what I at least think I can see the victory bars are painted different than those in the Mölders book I refer to. Both the photo of 51 bars and 54 bars are of the same aircraft and has roundels over each claim. Between each roundel and bar there are something which is not readable, but presumably dates. I can accept that they are from an F-1 and not an E model, but the photo you refer to seems to me to lack these roundels, which was why I assumed the Mölders book showed E-type rudders....
Silly puzzle.... :)

But it changes nothing to the main question Larry had and where it looks like we all agree by now!

Cheers
Stig

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

See super film:

Location: Germany
Date: 1940

"'...Street sign refers to public transport connection to Germany that runs daily until the end of the war. A dirt airfield. Ground crews load belt ammunition into boxes near Bf-109 (Me-109) aircraft on which mechanics are working. Ground crew refuels an aircraft. Famous German fighter pilot ace, Werner Molders, is assisted as he changes into flight clothes and climbs into the cockpit of his Bf-109 airplane. (Tail of his airplane shows 42 painted marks, representing aerial victories.) Crew chief stands on wing and cranks engine. Molders taxis out and takes off. Formation of Bf-109s in flight and over coastal waters. View from cockpit as German plane dives to attack allied ship in water. ...''

By the way on the view One of Werk Nr.: 3638

Source:

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...itish-Spitfire

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

KrisJG3,

I don't remember seeing this video source before or this film, although individual frames from it are known to me. This includes a photo of Mölders WNr. 5915, a W.Nr. that I'd not previously associated with his a/c. It shows 42 victories which would date this at the end of Sept., or the first 10 days of Oct., 1940. These have to be around late Sept., 1940. Excellent reference source. He's apparently flying a mission with JG53, as there are a/c from III./JG3 and I./JG3 on the film, as well as a Bf110 of 8./ZG26.

Are there other films that you've looked at on this site that have similar 1939-40 Luft a/c images?

Has anyone else seem images of Mölders flying W.Nr. 5915? This must have been between his E's #2804 and 3737, and was possibly his spare a/c during this period?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hi Larry,

I have found only this film, sorry nothing more . :)

Kris

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

A bit more on this Bf109 from Jim P. Originally sourced from TOCH but appears on LWAG

"Jim P.
Re: Bf109E W.Nr5915 Pilot I.D.
Sun May 11 18:02:19 2003
67.242.219.82

Bf 109E-4 5915 MÖLDERS, Major Werner 115 Stab JG 51 42 vic: 12, 16, 14 schwarz balken date: between 28.Sept.-11.Oct 1940 RK,EL,S,Br Kanal foto Jagdglieger Oberst Werner Mölder p.111, 116 - F
Bf 109E-7 5915 Erg.JGr.West 11-Jun-42 Bruchlandung due to pilot error. FR Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol. 9 Fl.Pl. Cazaux 25% H
Bf 109E-7 5915 II. JG 51 31-May-41 Fehlstart. Kanal Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IV.2, p.70; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, II, p.267 Fl.Pl. Mardyck/Dünkirchen 40% H"

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hi, just to add to the film KrisJG3 posted showing the tail of Bf110E 3U+FS W.Nr 3638. This a/c must have been later handed over to I/ZG26, as it was lost in the Balkans 26.4.41 as U8+AL flown by Uffz Wilhelm Rodel of 3/ZG26.

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Clint & Steve,

Thanx for the further info on these two images. Will be adding these photos to the EoE Photo DB after ordering them from the Critical Past website. Has anyone else perused this website for a/c images from the 1939-40 period that might support the EoE Project efforts? It looks like there might be a lot of useful material from both British and German wartime newsreel footage from this source. I'm not going to have a lot of time to scan through these looking for images, but if someone else is going to do this anyway, I'd appreciate any references to potentially useful photos. Looks like a real gold mine of info.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Question about the markings on the Bf109F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Does anybody know what Bf-109E variant he flew with JG53 and the WNr. I know he crashed one but did he fly more than one?

Thanks

Chris

Question about the markings on the Bf 109 F-1 of Werner Mölders during the last quarter of 1940
 

Hello Chris

I know that on 8 September 1939 he was injured when his fighter somersaulted while crash-landing near Wolfersweiler due to engine trouble. Then on 5 June 1940 he was shot down in aerial combat and baled out of his Bf 109 E-3 near Canly to be taken prisoner. It is generally assumed that his victor was Sous Lieutenant René Layragues (6 victories, killed in action 5 June 1940) of GC II/7, Armée de l'Air but it may very well be that he was shot down in error by another German fighter. Unfortunately, I know nothing about the werknummer of either aircraft since at that period such information was usually not included in the loss lists.

Horrido!

Leo