Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Hello,

I'm trying to work up caption info for the EoE project for two Ju88s in our photo collection: 2099 & 2141. Can anyone provide subtype, manufacture date and any info on operational history or final dispossession of either one of these Ju88As? These should be either Ju88A-1s or A-5s.

Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

1940-11-06, 2./KG 77, Ju 88A-5, (88)2099, Fl.Pl. Celle-Wietzenbruch, Bruchlandung. Bruch 70 %.
1.Wart Uffz Müller, Edmund, verletzt

1941-02-17, 1./KG 77, Ju 88A-5, (88)2141, Beauvais-Tille, Absturz um 13.00 Uhr infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Olt Hanschke, Erich, verletzt
Bordfunker Uffz Klein, Johann, verletzt
Bordschütze Fw Rösner, Erich, +
1.Wart Uffz Freytag, Johannes, +

Matti

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Matti,

Thanx. Does anyone know the approximate date of manufacture (at least month) of these two aircraft?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Based on the rate of deliveries by Arado, W.Nr.2099 probably was assembled in June 1940 as an A-1(VA+FT?) and W.Nr. 2139 also as an A-1 (PC+CZ?) in July 1940. This is all reverse engineering, so it could be in error.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

A meeting of experts!:D

@ "project coordinator" Hickey
If you try to write German names and places correctly, I might try to help you. See attachment.

The Ju 88/2141 does not crash on 17.02.41. There are many flights of this aircraft after this date. Aviation history is more than copy GQM and NVM lists in the computer.

@ Artiebob:
Are you sure that you want to write a book on the Ju 88? Since there is confusion in your details. Mr Creek is planning a book on the Ju 88. How about a collaboration?:D

Greetings to the "Luftwaffe experts" in the United States.:D

Regards
Petwr

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Well,

what a brilliant respond, I see three flights on 14.2.41 in FB. I think that 14.2.41 is before 17.2.41?

Regards

Robert

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Hi...

Sorry, but I think Peter is correct with the date. I appreciate it looks like 14.2.1941, but I think the '4' in '14' is a badly written '7'.

If you look at the time on the next line - 15.47, the '7' here, especially at the top left corner, looks more like the '4' in '14'.

As a comparison, if you look at the bottom left of this list, the line starting '636', and work along to the column headed 'Muster' and see the entry 88/7184, then to my eye, the '7' is equally badly written but noticeably different from the '4'.

Not sure about the names/place names comment, though... I don't see Larry having mentioned either in this thread, or am I missing something? Anyway, the ones on the list are both French - Reims and Juvincour.

Regards,

Paul

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Hello,

What aircraft code is written here for W.Nr. 2141? 3Z+S6 ? The last two make no sense.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

I used to work for a German company and the attitude of the "Fatherland" division was a distinct amount of of disdain for anything "not invented there". IMHO my reputation as an engineer improved through the years as it really happens that USA engineers could actually design and build some things in the USA as well as they (but certainly never better). My reputation perhaps was enhanced by the fact when mistakes were found, I quietly let the German individual know about it so it could be corrected without an international incident, rather than make an ego statement proving our German counterparts were not a superace and could actually make human errors . We just didn't tell them, that every "English" piece of sales literature or technical information we received, had to be rewriten so it could be understood. It appeared the truth was there is no magic foo-foo that makes German engineers any better than those trained in another country. It depends on the training and knowledge of the individual. So, having been a pilot for over fifty years and an engineer for the same length of time and having a degree in history, perhaps I might be able to write a book about a German subject. I acknowledge that hard as we try to prevent them, our efforts surely will have some errors and will not sound as if was written by someone born over there. Apparently perfection only lives in a land across the sea. But absolute perfection takes time and who knows Mr. Achs who will publish first?

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Peter, I don't quite understand, what you try to say with "Aviation history is more than copy GQM and NVM lists in the computer".

I am not an academically trained researcher, only an ordinary dipl.ing in aeronautics. Still, I very well understand all the problems, when trying to find out what, when, where and why happened to Luftwaffe aircraft and crews in aerial warfare in WW 2.

Contents of all preserved NVMs and GQM reports can now be found in my computer and I can assure you that there are thousands of cases, where Germans (not present "Luftwaffe experts" in the United States or Finland) have made mistakes in reporting. Wrong Werk.-Nrs, codes, locations, names, dates of birth, EKM numbers etc, etc. My estimate is, that 4-5 % of NVMs contain some sort of problematic info. So, official "history" is not quite straightforward.

However, I don't see any other alternative than use these original documents as a starting point for research. When additional or contradicting information will be found, we have to compare both and try to establish, which is correct or more likely.

Do you have a better proposal for research of Luftwaffe losses and what would be your definition of aviation history?

Would you also please tell us the flights of 2141 after 17.02.1941. That would help to put historical facts in order and correct again one possible error in wartime official loss report.

Regards,

Matti

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Paul,

I agree that the date of take off could lead to some confusion but I think the date of landing clearly says 14 and not 17.2.1941. At least to my eyes, that is.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Hello,

I also agree, that the date is 14.2.41. Here is what I can read:
-consecutive number of flight: 633, 634, 635
-pilot: Aschenbrenner
-attendant: ?
-a/c model: Ju 88 / W.Nr. 2141
-registration number: 3Z+SL
-purpose of flight: Einflug, Einflug, Nachflug (behind Nachflug the small word looks like Überführung)
-takeoff
-place: Reims, Reims, Reims
-date: 14.2.41, 14.2.41, 14.2.41
-time: 13:17, 15:47, 14:34 (!)
-landing
-place: ?, ?, ?
-date: 14.2.41, 14.2.41, 14.2.41
-time: 13:2?, 16:07, 14:51 (!)
-duration of flight: 12 min, 20 min, 17 min
-kilometers: 93, 1,55, 1,31 (maybe 93, 155, 131)

So I can't find any hint in this part of the FB, that supports Peter Achs' assumption.

regards,
Bf 110

PS: I'm embarrassed of the rude behaviour of my compatriot.

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Peter Achs,

I noted that you misspelled your own name in signing your comment. Does that mean that you're as human as the rest of us? Even if you do sometimes misspell German names, your support and assistance with the EoE Project is much appreciated, and your help is welcomed. Us lesser mortals don't discriminate against perfectionists in the EoE Project.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Hmmm,

is the date 06.03.41 after the 17.02.41? I don't know.:D

I'm not in the mood to discuss details about the Ju 88. Normally, I work only with people who know something about the subject and they don't come from US, England, Finnland or Poland...

@the project coordinator
Everyone makes typos, but your mistakes are not typos, you don't know it better. I remember a post where you've crippled my state capital.



Regards
Peter

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Peter,

Since I'm likely to publish a lot of WW II aviation history over future years, it seems to me that the most useful thing would be to help the EoE WG avoid such mistakes as misspelling your state capitol. I think that there are several people on this board that know "something" about the Ju88, including me. But I also have little doubt that you know a great deal more about the Ju88 than many, maybe any of us on this Board. As to places and people's names, we are dealing literally with thousands, maybe tens-of-thousands of them, some of which aren't even spelled today the way they were in WW II. And some are spelled as many as three different ways in Flemish, French and English (and for all I know a 4th in German). It is a challenge and I don't pretend to know the correct spelling for every place in Europe. So how about helping us get it as right as we can and noting our mistakes so that we can correct them, instead of taking potshots at our efforts? History will only be the better for it. I continue to encourage you to help us get it right where you can, as you did with the FB entry on W.Nr.2141. That was useful and positive, and I thank you for it.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

To all,

I don't claim to have as much knowledge about the Ju 88 as you do but I do think I have a pretty good collection pf photos. But I can tell you my wife works at an elementary school and the things she tells me about the 2nd and 3rd grade kids in the playground sounds very similar to what I'm seeing here. I'm sure there will be some incoming.

Chuck Schmitz

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Have to concur with Matti - my own research starts with the source documents I've been able to get my hands on and certainly don't disagree that these are not the be all and end all of research, but its a starting point. Between the published works of other researchers, my own collection of Flugbuch and other sources I've found innumerable discrepancies, but always note same in my own database.

And for the '3Z+S6' code that Larry asked about, its more likely '3Z+SL'. Hand written docs can be the worst to make sense of!!

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

I am not quite satisfied. For me the situation is such, that I should vote between Namentliche Verlustmeldung and private Flugbuch. Two contradictory pieces of information. Without a third source document, which would confirm either of these, I still keep (88)2141 for this loss for two reasons:
- I believe, that Luftwaffe bureaucratic official reporting system could somehow check validity of WNr. more reliably than a pilot his own markings in the Flugbuch,
- I have not yet found any other info on the final fate of (88)2141.

Hoping in future a little bit more constructive attitude from Peter instead of disparaging other nations. This forum is supposed to be for cooperation and mutual information transfer. That should give also for us, who know less (and realize that weakness), an opportunity to learn more. The ones, who believe they know best could distribute pieces of their vast knowledge instead of keeping everything under their belt.

Matti

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Hi, i have references to the pilot noted in the Flugbuch Peter posted, going back to October 1940 with KG77.
Could anybody provide clues to the actual function of Ashenbrenner within KG77, was he a test pilot or an operational member of the unit?
If anybody has further Flugbuch scans of Aschenbrenner could they possibly help, or indeed if Peter, if your willing to help mood permitting?

Steve.

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

I'm afraid that you'll never find out. I'd rather cut off my hand before I would send complete copies abroad.

You can ask the daughter if she would make copies. You just have to find out where she lives - and what's her name. She is married. :)

Regards
Peter

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

In 70+ years I stubbornly presumed that as human beings we had developed somewhat. Obviously not..... What a sad situation.....

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Peter why are you being so hostile and aggressive?... At the end of the day you entered this thread, i cant see previously where anybody has caused any offence to you???

Steve.

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

- the flight logbook is from Bordmechaniker Adolf Körner
- Aschenbrenner (Flugzeugführer) and Körner (Bordmechaniker) have had nothing to do with KG 77; both of them flew at the Junkers-GL-Werft at Reims (Frontreparaturbetrieb) (also look at the message from Peter 21.06.2008 - "Need history of Ju 88A W.Nr. 4228 of 7./KG 76")
- Oblt. Erich Hanschke`s crew are members of the 3. Staffel/KG 77 (see Chronik KG 77)

Klaus

Re: Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141
 

Hello,

My reason for this post was to try and ID a photo of Ju88A-1 3Z(?)+OL, W.Nr.2099, for which I have an excellent copy. My photo probably shows the a/c shortly after delivery to 3./KG77, somewhere about July of 1940, as it does not yet have a KG77 unit insignia painted on the nose, only the W.Nr. 2099. The prop spinners are also not yet painted in the system used by I./KG77 during the main part of the BoB, indicating that this was one of the new Ju88A-5s assigned to the the unit just before the Battle of Britain. The code __+OL is visible on the rear fuselage, and the letter "O" can be seen in black under the port wing, just outboard of the nacelle. If anyone knows of a photo of this a/c with this W.Nr. on the nose and carrying a KG77 unit insignia, I'd appreciate knowing about it. There is a small possibility that the __+OL was part of the SKZ, rather than the unit code, as this a/c was reported with 2./KG77 when it was badly damaged and written off in a crash-landing in Germany on 06.11.40. It's thus possible that this photo was taken in Germany immediately after manufacture and before delivery to KG77. Can anyone equate the W.Nr.2099 with the SKZ __+OL?

W.Nr. 2141 comes from a photo that I think shows several assembled crews from I./KG77 apparently being briefed just before the big daylight raid on London on 15 Sept. 1940. The tail of 2141 is in the background with a large white formation stripe painted vertically on the fin beginning just below the W.Nr., which was painted on the top of the fin in white. Also in the background is the front of a Ju88A-1, carrying a white prop spinner of I./KG77 with the front third tipped in yellow, indicating 3 Staffel. Very likely the assembled crewmen are from that Staffel, although 2141 was apparently serving in 1 Staffel when it was written off on 17.02.41.

I'd like to know the a/c code for this aircraft, presumably 3Z+_H or 3Z+_L, although I don't know if there is any way to know that. Also whether Erich Hansche's 3 Staffel crew, who was flying it when it crashed on 17.02.41, flew this aircraft regularly with KG77 during the BoB and Blitz. However, without a FB from a member of this crew, that is probably impossible to know.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this research thread, including Peter Achs. You have all been a big help in helping me understand what these photos show and when they were likely taken.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator