Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

I'm trying to gather as much information as I can about this Lancaster R5679 shot down on the night of the 25th September 1942 whilst on a Gardening mission to lay mines in the 'Sweet peas' area off the north coast of Germany the air craft was returning when it was attacked by a night fighter over Denmark 2 pilots have been credited as shooting it down Ob Lt Willi Elstermann 11/NJG3 and Ltn Karl Heinz Brandes 7/NJG 2 I believe there is also some reference to it in Theo Boiten - "German Nightfighter War Diaries".

Does anyone out there have access to the German accounts for this action. Next year there are plans for a memorial to be erected in the town Gronhoj where the plane crashed I would like to gather as much information as I can. I have photographs of most of the crew but I am missing Sgt Cedric Nils Coldicott aged 22 service number 570285 RAF and Sgt Edmund Dyson aged 20 service number 1059428 RAFVR. Thanks

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

I do not believe this was a claim of Oblt. Willi Elstermann. I have his logbook and this does not match with the details inthe logbook. In my belief his 4th victory was on 29/4/1042 and his 5th on 13/6/1943.

Thanks,

john

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Hi guys

Boiten and Mackenzie in The Nachtjagd War Diaries do indeed identify this bomber as having been shot down by Oberleutnant Willi Elstermann of 6./NJG 3 as his fifth victory. The only other claim that night is listed as having been made by Leutnant Karl-Heinz Brandes of 7./NJG 2 and that bomber is identified as having been Lancaster I (R5724) of 61 Sqn, RAF. The authors list the victory claimed by Elstermann on 13 June 1943 as having been his sixth. Hopefully others with greater knowledge and resources can clear up if this particular bomber was brought down by Elstermann or not. I hope this helps somewhat.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

In my belief Boiten/Mackenzie is wrong here, I assume this will be corrected in the updated volumes?

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Thanks for your replies guys, I have been researching this now for about 18 months now it is one of the best recorded crashes as it was the only allied aircraft shot down that night. Anders Straarp of airmen.dk has been very helpful as a contact with the town of Gronhoj and a relative of the Pilot David Geddes and I have been working on discovering as much as possible. Anders has so far recorded verbal accounts of the crash and plotted the witness accounts. So any information however small helps to piece this puzzle together. Regards
Mike

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

I have an account of the air battle here:

By Georg Ask Lunden Jensen
GRØNHØJ: At about 01.22 on 25 September 1942 Gudrun Laigaard, then 22, woke up in her bedroom in Grønhøj Inn. ”I woke up because suddenly my bedroom got light. There was a very loud noise,” she states. A few minutes earlier a British Avro Lancaster bomber was on the return flight to England after having dropped mines into the Baltic Sea, but here it ran out of luck. The bomber was attacked by a German night fighter piloted by Oberleutnant Elstermann from Nachtjagdgeschwader 3 and burst into flames near Grønhøj. In the house Gudrun Laigaard could hear the noise from the propeller engines of the big aircraft as it, burning, came roaring at low height over the village. ”It passed very close over the house. I nearly thought that it was going to crash here,” relates Gudrun, now 89, while we sit in the old inn looking out of the window to the western outskirts of Grønhøj where the plane fell to the ground.

Another aircraft also from 61 Squadron was hit by flak and then attacked by Lt. Karl-Heinz Brandes (4) 7./NJG2 an hour later at 02.13 hrs. The crew (3) put up a fierce fight and managed to drive him and another off. The aircraft Lancaster R5724, although badly damaged was skilfully flown back to England and crash landed at Wittering, Northamptonshire. All the crew survived, some were injured and all were awarded immediate D.F.M.'s. In Brandes report there is no mention of the location of the action.

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Hello John would it be possible to have a scan of the relevant page from the log book. I have times of interception and ground witness accounts. What I would like to do is match up as much information as possible. Can you also confirm what aircraft type and registration he was flying.

regards
Mike

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

I will look, but do also ask Boiten/Mackenzie got their info from.

Cheers,

John

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Info on Elstermann probably comes from the Nonnemacher list, wich has a proportion of errors built in by Nonnemacher himself, in order to prevent it beeing used without credit. Flensteds site have the same info as Boiten.

Junker

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Mike,

Checked the Flugbuch but it runs only to 14.8.1942. In 2006 I discussed all claims of Elstermann with Winfried Bock and at that time we came to the conclusion that the claim of 25.09.1942 was an error and that this claim did not exist.

Regards,

John

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Many thanks for looking into this, any information how ever small (and I and others have gathered a lot) to compile a time map of events is helpful. I can cross reference all information I receive. We have many ground witness accounts so we are able to create the flight path. One note of interest the rear gunner of this aircraft was my distant cousin he was the only crew member to leave the aircraft although he was too low to deploy his parachute and landed in the back garden of the Inn in Gronhoj.

Regards
Mike

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Another question can anyone confirm the aircraft type that would have been used by Elstermann or Brandes it was thought it could have been JU88's but I don't think they had changed over by September 25th and the most likely it seems to be that they would be equipped with Bf 110. Can anyone confirm?

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

I have checked the Nonnemacher list, and the entry about Elstermann is in the list. So it must be one of the inbuilt faults.
Brandes was flying either Do 217 or Ju 88.

Junker

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Hello and good morning chaps,

A quick reply -yes I got the claims details from the Nonnenmacher listing. Both Rod and I have been very busy over the past few years sieving out hundreds of 'suspect' or even downright falsified claims from the original Nonnenmacher listings, by the use of many dozens of new Nachtjagd Flugbücher, Leistungsbücher, Abschussmeldungen, Gefechtsberichte etc etc etc that we have mostly obtained from private collections. It's a painstaking and very time consuming business, but in the end -in 2015, with the 4-volume 2nd edition of the NJWD- we hope to present a much more accurate picture than we were able to do with the first (2 volume) edition of the NJWD in 2008.

John, I'll send you a PM re the Elstermann claims.

Cheers, Theo

Re: Lancaster R5679 shot down 25th September 1942
 

Hello Theo - thank you for posting if you do find any other information to do with this engagement could also pm me your findings, I will pass them on also to David Geddes, R5679's pilot Lewis Morrison's newphew.

Regards
Mike