Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hello all,

Is it possible to find out how many Wingcommanders are still missing from WW II? I am researching an unknown airman that possibly had the rank of wingcommander.(the CWGC is digging up the papers wich claimed that)
He was found on a Dutch beach on November 13 1943.


Dennis

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hi Dennis - missing aircrew is a subject close to my heart. I shall do some digging in my books tonight and see what comes up . . .I am on a similar mission myself concerning Wing Commander Peter Brooker. What details are on the headstone ?

Get back to you soon,

Andy.

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hello Andy,


The text on the headstone says:
AN AIRMAN
OF THE
1939-1945
WAR
15 November 1943
KNOWN UNTO GOD.

The thing is that in 1946 this body was exhumed for examination by an RAF team. They wrote a note to the cemetery with the request of changing the text on the wooden cross to “an unknown RAF Wingcommander”.
I have written to the CWGC for clarification but no answer yet.
I will let you know when I hear from them.

Dennis

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hi Dennis,

Looking in my sea losses file.

No obvious candidates for 11/43

4/10/43
W/C R M Longmore (Flying out of Iceland so unlikely)

27/09/43
W/C J C Archer (Search in Western Approaches)

25/09/43
W/C C S Cooper (Off Den Helder)

21/08/43
W/C J Breitcetl (Western Approaches)

17/08/43
W/C W R Haskell (Raid on Peenemunde)

I would look at Cooper then Haskell before moving to July or earlier.

Regards
Ross

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hello Ross,

Of all the bodies that washed up in my search area, one spent 129 days in the water but the others not more than 64 days. Unidentified bodies and parts excluded. Counting back that would be around September 12, 1943. Cooper would be an excellent candidate.

Keep in mind that the rank has yet to be confirmed. It could be that the 1946 investigation was found to be inaccurate. I’m getting more impatient for news from the CWGC by the minute ;)

The Dutch police report gives few clues, the Germans had already searched the body, a German Docter had alread looked at the body. The body was badly decomposed; head and feet were missing. Pockets were cut open (probably by the Germans). No markings were found on the dark-grey overall.

Several days later the body was buried. Two Dutch policeman and four German soldiers were present.

By the way; is Cooper from Coastal Command? I have searched bomber and fighter command losses but with no success!



Dennis

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hi Dennis,

Yes, Cooper was Coastal Command.

From the draft RAF Coatal Command Losses, Vol 2

25/09/43
254 Sqn
Beaufighter X
JL957
A

Op: Strike, RAF North Coates, Time Up 10:54 hrs

W/C C S Cooper DFC
P/O J M Kirkup

Took off for a wing strike in company with aircraft of the squadron, 12 aircraft of No.236 Sqn and a fighter escort from Coltishall. Sighted an enemy convoy of between 14 to 18 ships in position 52 55N 04 35E. A/254 dropped its torpedo then was seen to crash into the North Sea west of Den Helder, Netherlands, with the port engine on fire after being hit by flak. Both W/C Cooper and P/O Kirkup are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.

Regards
Ross

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Blimey ! Job done. ;-) Sounds like Cooper . . .guys, I have been waiting an age for a reply from the CWGC myself - I almost feel like knocking on their door in person ! !

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hold on Andy-don't jump to conclusions! The CWGC do not hold casualty files but the AHB does so only the latter might be able to confirm what could have happened to Cooper and if any investigation was made when the grave was exhumed. These files are not of general relesase to researchers but are to NOK/incidents when they are trying to identify remains

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Thanks Chris, I didn't know that . . .neck wound in!

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Gents,

I don't want to spoil your enthousiasm but it's unlikely that W/Cdr Cooper washed ashore near Noordwijk for geophysical reasons:

The main current of the North Sea along the Dutch Coast is South to North. That's the reason that bodies of an aircraft which crashed into the North Sea wash up along the coast to the North.

The crash site of W/Cdr Cooper's Beaufighter is almost 100 kilometers North of Noordwijk! It's almost impossible that his body would have drifted against the current so far to the South...

Regards,
Hans Nauta

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Thanks Hans - is there a map of some sort, or a site that shows graphically tides and currents . . .? I would imagine a tide direction would be good circumstantial evidence, amongst other pieces information if some one were to ask the CWGC to name an Unknown airman and ammend a headtsone.

What does anyone else think ?

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Andy: Circumstantial would not be sufficient-look at the work that went into identifying Wg Cdr Warburton's remains

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hello everybody,

First of all I want to thank all for their input!
Hans Nauta has a strong point, have a look at the map at the top of this page

http://www.nioz.nl/vleet/content/ned/index.php?item=vleet&pageid=NED0009.HTM&use_templa te=vleet_template.html

Most body’s in my search area indeed floated up along the coast, but not all.
Furthermore I again want to point out that the Wingcommander rank is not confirmed at this moment . I have sent my letter to the CWGC in Ieper (B), they replied that they would sent it to their headoffice in Maidenhead(GB). The letter ended with "No doubt they will send you a reply soon".

Chris, I gues that AHB is the air historic branch, but what are NOK/incidents?

I wanted to give some more details but I am at work at the moment.

Dennis

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

AHB=Air Historical Branch; NOK=Next of Kin

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

The CWGC replied with a letter, dd.24 February 2006.
Te letter is not just about the possible wingcommander, I had some questions about other headstones aswell.

Having checked our records for these casualties I have been unable to find any documentation or correspondence to suggest that their ranks may be incorrect. The details that we record for them were verified following exhumations that took place by the military authorities in 1946 and were taken to be correct at the time. As a result of this, we would be unable to make any changes to our records but if you are able to provide us with suitable documentary evidence we would of course be willing to consider this. Please forward all copies to me by post at the above address.
You also asked for a copy of the records for No.2 Missing Research and Enquiry Unit for Noordwijk General Cemetery. Unfortunately, we do not have these and our policy is not to supply copies of our own documents to the public so I am unable to help in this respect.


It looks as if the CWGC is not in a position to help any further. They do not have the record of the unit. I have made an online search at the NA, but they don’t have the document either. The only paper trail is a letter from the town hall to the cemetery stating that some changes needed to be made to the text on some of the crosses. These changes came from No.2 Missing Research and Enquiry Unit, after they had exhumed the graves and investigated the remains.

I’m open to suggestions as I don’t think this letter will be enough.

Or perhaps he was no wingcommander?

Dennis

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

I'm posting a second time in the hope that it will end up at the top of the list, unlike yesterday ;)

The CWGC replied with a letter, dd.24 February 2006.
Te letter is not just about the possible wingcommander, I had some questions about other headstones aswell.

Having checked our records for these casualties I have been unable to find any documentation or correspondence to suggest that their ranks may be incorrect. The details that we record for them were verified following exhumations that took place by the military authorities in 1946 and were taken to be correct at the time. As a result of this, we would be unable to make any changes to our records but if you are able to provide us with suitable documentary evidence we would of course be willing to consider this. Please forward all copies to me by post at the above address.
You also asked for a copy of the records for No.2 Missing Research and Enquiry Unit for Noordwijk General Cemetery. Unfortunately, we do not have these and our policy is not to supply copies of our own documents to the public so I am unable to help in this respect.


It looks as if the CWGC is not in a position to help any further. They do not have the record of the unit. I have made an online search at the NA, but they don’t have the document either. The only paper trail is a letter from the town hall to the cemetery stating that some changes needed to be made to the text on some of the crosses. These changes came from No.2 Missing Research and Enquiry Unit, after they had exhumed the graves and investigated the remains.

I’m open to suggestions as I don’t think this letter will be enough.

Or perhaps he was no wingcommander?

Dennis

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hi Dennis,

I think this will remain a difficult matter. One other option is to approach Jan Hey, perhaps he may have more info.

Please contact me off-line for his emailadres.

Regards,
Hans

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

For those of you that contributed to this thread a short update.

I had sent all the documents I found to the CWGC and they passed it on to the RAF (AHB?) Mrs. Lisa Simmonds replied earlier this month with a letter.

“Their investigations have concluded that the casualty buried in Plot 6, grave 4 should be recorded as a Wing Commander. They have also reviewed the casualty files of several Wing Commanders with no known graves who could possibly be buried there but have been unable to link any of them to the grave”

“Arrangements will be made to replace the headstone”

Dennis

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Dennis. W/Cdr J. Coverdale RAF went missing without a trace while flying with 431 Sq on June 21,1943. The route in would of taken them south of Rotterdam and the return trip out over Belgium. Is this man a possibility?
Richard

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hi Richard,

The area where he could have entered the water makes sense. South of Noordwijk along the coast, or along the coast of Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex and Kent. He would have spent over 140 days in the water. The record for casualties that washed up in Noordwijk and Katwijk is 129 days (the unidentified excluded).
I can’t exclude Coverdale, that’s as far as I dare to go in these matters.

Do you have a special interest in W/Cdr Coverdale?

Dennis

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Hans, I am no expert here...but I know of a case where four crew members washed onto beaches near the Dutch/Belgian border and the plane crashed of Rotterdam, so that would be a southern current. So it is not completely impossible, though makes the case a bit more interesting. Looking at the majority of bodies washed up, they did indeed go north!!!
Danny

Re: Missing Wingcommanders
 

Danny,

Hans is on holiday so I’ve taken the liberty to respond to your remark.
Sometimes severe storms were more powerful than the currents and tides. Halifax BB324 is presumed to have crashed off Zandvoort, 2 casualties washed up at Zandvoort, but 1 and possibly 2 bodies washed up at Katwijk, roughly 40 km south. So there are indeed exceptions.

Dennis