Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Who was the pilot?

1. On 23.4.45, Approx. 16:00, Speer is flown from Gatow into Berlin (East/West Axis), in a Storch (Groehler; Der Neue Reichskanzlei, das Ende, p 38. Speer; Inside the Third Reich, p 638)
2. On 24.4.45, Approx. 03:30, Speer is flown out (Joachimsthaler; The last days of Hitler, p 111. Speer, p 647-48)
3. On 26.4.45, Approx. 04:00, Ritter von Greim and Hanna Reitz are flown from Rechlin to Gatow airport in a Fw 190 (Reitsch, The Sky, my Kingdom, p 205). They continue, Greim at the controls, in a Storch and Reitsch lands the plane, after Greim was injured, on the East/West Axis.
4. On 27.4.45, evening. Six Storchs are despatched, protected by some 30 fighters, in a vane attempt to haul Greim/Reitsch out of Berlin. Two Storchs crashes (Koller, p 103)
5. On 28.4.45, 24:00 (or probably shortly after midnight and thus on the 29th), Greim and Reitsch are picked up by an Arado 96 and flown to safety (Reitsch, p 208). They land safely at Rechlin 03:00 in the morning (Reitsch, p 213)*


Flights 1, 2, 3 and five were allegedly piloted by the same, incredibly courageous and skilled Luftwaffe Feldwebel: a stunning feat by an outstanding aviator. Yet I have not been able to find his name, his fate or other references than the ones mentioned here. It sounds rather unbelievable that his identity is not recorded somewhere.

If anyone here can shed more light on the matter, I would be very interested to hear about it.

Dan

* Different versions of the Reitsch/von Greim flight exist. Some historians attribute the aviatrix herself to be the pilot (Tolland, Last Hundred Days, p 583) (and some the plane to be a Storch). Reitsch, on the other hand, says that the plane was an Arado 96 and the pilot was the same Luftwaffe Feldwebel who flew the couple from Rechlin to Gatow a few days before. She names him Feltwebel B – the closest thing to a name, I have found. Although this remarkable woman was also described as hysterical and theatrical, and therefore may not hold the highest veracity rating, she has the unquestionable advantage of having actually been in the plane. Thus, I tend to go with her version.


And btw, since I’m a newbie, thanks for accepting me and a few words about myself: My name is Dan, I am a retired technical writer, 61, live in Denmark, take a strong interest in the turbulent days of the Battle for Berlin and visit the city frequently to roam the places where it all happened.

I also run a couple of websites – www.wartourist.eu and www.krigsturist.dk (Danish language) – the content of which reflects my initial key interest: the Atlantic Wall. I shall have to admit though, that this interest has faded a little over the years and the sites are thus not as well kept as they should be. Must catch up with that :o

Dan

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Welcome aboard, Dan! Finally, after weeks and weeks and weeks of patient waiting at the gates for entry approval. If you let your beard grow while waiting, it must reach down to your waist by now!

Well, now that you have been thoroughly investigated, sliced, diced and vetted by the DBI, let's hope someone here can answer your question about the identity of Feldwebel B. We gave it a good spin over on AHF, but the members here have loads of data on Lw. NCO pilots that the rest of us lack. Hopefully, your post will click with someone here.

Larry

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

The Ju 52 that had 'successfully managed to land' on the Ost-West-Achse that night and then take-off again was apparently flown by one Oberfeldwebel Böhm from II./TGr 3. This was reported by another young Ju 52 pilot from this unit, Uffz. Johannes Lachmund who described events in his 2009 memoir.
Lachmund mentions discussions via telephone from the 'air traffic control' command-post at the Siegessäule (Berlin's Victory column) between Ofw Böhm and the Bunker in the Reichskanzlei. There was apparently some dispute over the passengers to be flown-out, chiefly because Hanna Reitsch wanted to fly out the Ritter von Greim herself at the controls of the Arado Ar-96, and not leave Berlin as a passenger on this Ju-52 flight.

(excuse i cant remember from where i copy this)

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Thanks Larry, patience pays off it seems. Let's see how it works out with the Greim/Reitsch affair here ;-)

And thanks O.Menu. I believe the cut could be from O'Donnell (the Bunker) or perhaps Joachimsthaler, although I do not recall having heard of Oberfeldwebel Böhm before. An interesting lead, and I will try to look into it. Thanks!

Dan

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

O.Menu, I found it. It's a thread in Axis Forum:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=167239&start=45

Apparently not "our" Feldwebel B, but a good shot...

Regards
Dan

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Looking at that Axis History Forum thread, reminded me of something slightly off-topic. Gerrard Williams posted there about:

Hauptmann Erich Peter Baumgart, allegedly a Luftwaffe pilot with 128 kills over Crete, Italy, North Africa and the Eastern front . Also an Iron Cross Holder. Appears to have also held SS rank ... Possibly flying with KG 200 in April 1945.

This is the guy Williams' book "Grey Wolf" would have us believe flew Hitler out of Berlin at the end.

I wonder if the Hauptmann was any relation to Uffz. Wolf Baumgart who claimed to have flown two Ju 290 missions to Manchuria with FAG 5 in February 1944. He wound up in the infantry and was wounded in January 1945. He was apparently in hospital for a couple of months and was captured by American troops while making his way home. Source: APWIU (Ninth Air Force) 44/1945 which is in TNA file AIR40/3122.

The report is dated 29 March 1945, so this member of the intrepid Baumgart family probably wasn't available to rescue the Führer ...

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Hello,
Just came across your interesting thread on these flights Reitsch/v. Greim in and out Berlin. This subject has been discussed in depth in Mombeeck's Stoming the Bombers (JG 4) volume 2. Mombeeck's has interviewed the Ofw. in question: Martin Dekker of JG 11. Apparently (I asked Erik on this matter) he could be still alive now!
Hope that it helps.
Phil

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Strange... a month ago was promotion of book in Belgrade, British author and book is about Hitler escape from Berlin and life after the war.

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Gents, sorry for being absent for some time.

Nick: I found a mention of Baumgart in Trevor-Ropers book on Hitler (1956 edition). It appears, that he was a nutcase that cooked the story up, and later was committed to a lunatic asylum in Poland.

Flupke: Thanks. I have tried to obtain that book, but it seems to be out of print and only obtainable used - at horrendous prices. I keep looking ;-)

Pilot: I take it that you refer to "Grey Fox" by Williams and Dunstan? I dunno quite what to think of it yet - I'm not done reading it, but a good deal of their claims seems to be to be unsubstantiated. Anyone here who have read the book in full..?

Dan

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Not read book at all but part of day was dedicated to this event (on radio) and there was mention many sources (like Intelligence) as point that Hitler escaped and live later safely. Personally I have no opinion at all but fact is- Hitlers remains was never founded. In today's police terms, he would be credited as hiding or escaping.

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Forensic pathologists have positively identified Hitler's jaw in the Moscow archives some years ago, so perhaps all the stupid talk about his alleged escape can cease. The sort of nonsense rumors spread by Stalin after the war.

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Conspiracy theory and "What If" scenarios - these have so muddied the waters with myths that the the younger generation trying to study World War II end up confused and mislead. The practitioners of this nonsense do a disservice to history.

L.

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

How positively though?

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Is this published anywhere? I also hear that Soviets captured Hitler but also that was never official confirmed, with no evidence. Thank you for info ;)

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Larry and VVince are correct. The jaw was identified some years back and some Russian published a small book about it. there was even a TV special, I think the history channel, on the subject. All this AFTER the fall of the USSR and "Eastern" Europe.

Stalin loved to occassionaly trot out the myth that Hitler survived and was allowed by the Allies to go to an assortment of S American countries. He found it useful to do this as it was the start and middle of the Cold War and he, and subsequent Russian leaders hated that the West was letting the "Nazis" in West Germany rearm and run their own affairs.

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Thank you John :)

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Is anymore known about Martin Dekker from Flupke's post. The JG1/11 history has 20-Aug-44 Uffz Martin Dekker of 3/JG11 claiming a Mustang and 23-Dec-44 Uffz Martin Dekker I/JG11 badly wounded in combat.

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

According to documents released by the former KGB in 2009, the Russians did find Hitler's body and destroyed the remains as late as 1970.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/eu...ins/index.html

Dan

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Gents, just to top this thread off (for now at least), I too have read the Grey Wolf book by Williams & Dunstan. No reason to go into a lengthy review as I concur completely with the views expressed by many in the Axis History Forom, where the book was thoroughly debated a couple of years ago.
Thread here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...e+now#p1637569
Dan

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

There is no reason to believe Hitler died in the bunker.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...skull-fragment

The Russians claim to have Hitler's jaw but have only allowed photographs to be seen. There is no reason to believe the Russians ever had Hitler's remains. It appears his double may have been found. In the book, Speaking Frankly (1947), by Secretary of State James F. Byrnes, he recounts a meeting with Stalin and Hitler's death is brought up. Stalin tells him he is not dead but either in Spain or Argentina. Post-war FBI reports state that certain persons had seen Hitler and Eva Braun in all-German communities. I do not think the Secretary of State or the FBI were in error, or the qualified person who viewed the alleged Hitler skull fragment.


Ed

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

"I do not think the Secretary of State or the FBI were in error"

Yup, you can always trust a politician. And didn't J. Edgar Hoover spend years denying the existence of the Mafia?

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

Nick,


I am a bit surprised to see you use the tactic of diversion. From fbi.gov:

"By the early 1930s, cities like St. Paul, Minnesota, had become virtual training grounds for young crooks, while Hot Springs, Arkansas, had turned into a safe haven and even a vacation spot for the criminal underworld. Al Capone was locked away for good in 1931 (thanks in part to the Bureau), but his Chicago Outfit carried on fine without him and would actually experience a resurgence in the coming decades. The “Five Families” of the New York Mafia were also emerging during this period, with “Lucky” Luciano setting up the “Commission” to unite the mob and “Murder, Inc.” to carry out its hits. Prohibition was ultimately repealed in 1933, but by then, the Great Depression was in full force, and with honest jobs harder to come by than ever, the dishonest ones sometimes seemed more attractive than standing in soup lines."


Ed

Re: Who flew von Greim and Reitsch out of Berlin?
 

In no sense a diversion, Ed, simply a recognition that sources should be treated with due scepticism in the light of their track record. We're going dangerously off-topic here but what the post-Hoover FBI says in the light of hindsight and what Hoover was saying in an earlier era may be two different things. For example (heading back topic-wards) I have seen details in pilots' postwar memoirs that they neglected to mention in sortie reports.