A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Hi,

could you help me gather any data (on the pilot, the aircraft, the FG etc..) about a P51 that crashed in Feb 1945 at LA NEUVEVILLE SOUS MONTFORT 88800
(North of France, Vosges Department, close to Vittel and Contrexeville cities);

We have no precise day for the crash,

we know is that the pilot was killed in the crash;

Thanks in advance;

GC

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Here's a list for aircraft lost in France, Feb. 45. Good Luck.

http://www.accident-report.com/world...ce/fr4502.html

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

The above list will not show all aircraft lost in operations.

I have the following list from the USAAF Personnel Records. Those are all pilots who died in February 1945 and have "P-51" or "F-6" (the recon variant of the P-51) in the details field of their entry, and that are not in accident list or MACR list away from this area:

William D Bates FLOF AL 6 2 1945 P-51D # 44-13884 QP-V (no MACR, not in accident lists)
Paul G Santos 1L DC 6 2 1945 P-51D # 44-15615 WD-T (MACR in GER)
Julio Arambula Nuno 1L CA 9 2 1945 P-51C # 43-25041 LC-I (MACR in GER)
Charles C Ettlesen Capt NJ 9 2 1945 P-51K # 44-11651 CV-V (MACR in GER)
Thomas J Taylor 1L MA 9 2 1945 P-51D # 44-14428 (MACR in GER)
Clarence Edward Mains 1L CA 12 2 1945 P-51 # unknown
Jack D Leon 1L MI 14 2 1945 P-51D # 44-14319 KI-M (MACR in GER)
John C Donnell, Jr 1L CA 14 2 1945 P-51D # 44-14651 L2-V (MACR in GER)
Irvin E Lang FLOF OH 15 2 1945 P-51D # 44-13764 (MACR in GER)
Ben T Crosby, Jr 1L FL 16 2 1945 P-51D # 44-13466 (MACR in GER)
Frank D Bradford II Capt CA 17 2 1945 P-51D
Edward Francis Borosky 1L OH 22 2 1945 P-51D # 44-13437 (MACR in GER)
Elbert R Averett FLOF UT 22 2 1945 P-51D # 44-15355 (MACR in GER)
Russell Robinson Weldon, Jr 2L CT 22 2 1945 P-51D # 44-63679 (MACR in GER)
Peter C Vassuer 1L CA 22 2 1945 P-51K # 44-11739 (MACR in GER)
William Granville Hargis Capt GA 23 2 1945 P-51D # 44-63624 (MACR in GER)
Melvin Edward Thayer 1L MA 23 2 1945 P-51D # 44-63769 (MACR in GER)
Richard Peterson 2L WI 23 2 1945 P-51D # 44-63786 (MACR in GER)
Robert B Warner 2L ME 23 2 1945 P-51D # 44-64039 (MACR in GER)
Franklyn Piersol Bunker 2L MD 25 2 1945 15th Photographic Squadron 10th Reconnaissance Group F-6D # 44-14420 (MACR in GER)
John David Alexander, Jr 2L NC 28 2 1945 P-51C # 43-25152 (MACR in GER)
Jerry R McDonald Capt TX 28 2 1945 P-51D

I have let all MACR listed as "in Germany" as an aircraft crashing in this area could have been involved in a raid on Germany.

The above list is not complete at all, of course.

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Here are some possibilities I extracted from Joe Baugher's site. No idea where exactly they were lost.

42-103411 (111th FG) MIA Feb 11, 1945. MACR 12314
42-103419 (F-6, 10th FG) shot down by AAA Feb 14, 1945. MACR 12353
42-103486 (F-6, 111th FG) MIA Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12678
43-24797 (31st FG, 309th FS) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12668
43-25126 (31st FG) lost feb 2, 1945. MACR 11820
44-11197 (20th FG, 55th FS) lost Feb 25, 1945. MACR 12742
44-11244 (20th FG, 79th FS) lost Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12617
44-11359 (355th FG, 354th FS) shot down by AAA Feb 21, 1945. MACR 12597. Pilot KIA
44-13379 (339th FG, 505th FS) lost Feb 6, 1945. MACR 12168
44-13764 lost Feb 15, 1945, Pilot KIA.
44-13846 (20th FG, 79th FS) lost Feb 26, 1945. MACR 12767
44-13884 (4th FG) MIA Feb 6, 1945.
44-14068 (55th FG, 38th FS) lost Feb 20, 1945. MACR 12558
44-14275 (355th FG, 354th FS) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12671
44-14296 (55th FG, 343rd FS) lost Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12620
44-14298 (55th FG, 343rd FS) lost Feb 19, 1945. MACR 12497.
44-14946 (3rd FG) lost Feb 7, 1945. MACR 13554
44-14949 (353rd FG, 351st FS) lost Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12622
44-14975 (20th FG, 77th FS) lost Feb 19, 1945. MACR 12498
44-14987 (359th FG, 370th FS) lost Feb 23, 1945. MACR 12638
44-14998 (356th FG, 359th FS) lost Feb 25, 1945. MACR 12738
44-15060 (55th FG, 343rd FS) lost Feb 21, 1945. MACR 12593
44-15081 (359th FG, 369th FS) lost Feb 28, 1945. MACR 12800
44-15096 (359th FG, 368th FS) lost Feb 19, 1945. MACR 12450
44-15149 (356th FG, 360th FS) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12690
44-15271 (356th FG, 359th FS) lost Feb 25,1945. MACR 12739
44-15280 (356th FG, 359th FS) lost Feb 25, 1945. MACR 12741
44-15355 (31st FG) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12666
44-15406 (55th FG, 343rd FS) lost Feb 27, 1945. MACR 12779
44-15412 (479th FG, 436th FS) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12692
44-15447 (31st FG) lost Feb 2, 1945. MACR 11816
44-15478 (31st FG) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12667
44-15483 (52nd FG) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12459
44-15630 (357th FG, 363rd FS) lost Feb 9, 1945. MACR 12172
44-63171 (78th FG, 84th FS) lost Feb 21, 1945. MACR 12594
44-63177 (78th FG, 82nd FS) lost Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12613
44-63182 (78th FG, 84th FS) lost Feb 3, 1945. MACR 12166
44-63185 (78th FG, 82nd FS) lost Feb 9, 1945. MACR 12167
44-63193 (354th FG) lost Feb 21, 1945. MACR 12599
44-63203 (78th FG, 82nd FS) lost Feb 28, 1945. MACR 12795
44-72160 (20th FG, 55th FS) lost Feb 25, 1945

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Thanks very much, guys, but.. well.. so many... it is not gonna be easy !

Cheers.

GC

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

I researched a little more thoroughly. Since you indicated pilot was KIA in the crash, these tail numbers can be eliminated as all pilots were POW.

44-13846
44-14068
44-14275
44-14298
44-14998
44-15060
44-15081
44-15096
44-15149
44-15271
44-15406
44-15412
44-63171
44-63177
44-63182
44-63185
44-63203
44-72160

44-63256 Pilot bailed out so exlcuded also

A few more tidbits on the others added:

42-103411 (111th FG) MIA Feb 11, 1945. MACR 12314 *** Possibly based at Nancy-Azelot Airfield (Y-80) ,France

42-103419 (10th FG) shot down by AAA Feb 14, 1945. MACR 12353 *** No history found

42-103486 (111th FG) MIA Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12678 *** Possibly based at Nancy-Azelot Airfield(Y-80), France

43-24797 (31st FG, 309th FS) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12668 *** 31st FG Based in Italy late war

43-25126 (31st FG) lost feb 2, 1945. MACR 11820 *** 31st FG Based in Italy late war

44-11197 (20th FG, 55th FS) KI-G lost Feb 25, 1945. MACR 12742 *** Lt. Raymond H Soleau

44-11244 (20th FG, 79th FS) MC-J lost Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12617 *** Lt. Leonard M Wright Jr.

44-11359 (355th FG, 354th FS) WR-C shot down by AAA Feb 21, 1945. MACR 12597. *** Lt. James J Costigan KIA

44-13379 (339th FG, 505th FS) 6N- lost Feb 6, 1945. MACR 12168 *** Capt. Robert W. Bloxam KIA

44-14296 (55th FG, 343rd FS) lost Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12620 *** No history found

44-14946 (3rd FG) lost Feb 7, 1945. MACR 13554 *** No history found

44-14949 (353rd FG, 351st FS) YJ-Q lost Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12622 *** Lt. Raymond Hilgenberg KIA

44-14975 (20th FG, 77th FS) LC-K lost Feb 19, 1945. MACR 12498 *** Lt. Robert E Murrell

44-14987 (359th FG 370th FS) lost Feb 23, 1945. MACR 12638 *** Capt. Washington D "Duke" Lyon "Patty Whack/Loveable Ann" - KIA

44-15280 (356th FG, 359th FS) OC-S lost Feb 25, 1945. MACR 12741 *** "Flying Dutchman" Lt.Henry C Scott KIA

44-15447 (31st FG) lost Feb 2, 1945. MACR 11816 *** 31st FG Based in Italy late war

44-15478 (31st FG) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12667 *** 31st FG Based in Italy late war

44-15483 (52nd FG) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12459 *** 52nd FG Based in Italy late war

44-15630 (357th FG, 363rd FS) B6-L lost Feb 9, 1945. MACR 12172 *** Capt. James W Browning KIMCA

44-63193 (354th FG) lost Feb 21, 1945. MACR 12599 *** Probably 354th FS of 355th FG, but cannot confirm

44-63207 (78th FG, 84nd FS) WZ-G "Scream'n Demon" Feb 20 1945 *** Lt. Merle V Brendle KIMAC (France)

And found a few more:

44-11663 (78th FG, 82nd FS) MX-D Coss, Capt. Wilbur J. Lost 22 Feb 45 - Killed in mid-air collision

44-11688 (78th FG 82nd FS) MX-U Bibeau Lt. Lucian J. Lost in 24 Feb 45 - KIA MACR 12616

44-14260 (355th FG 357th FS) OS-W Wilson Maj. John H. "Becky" 14 Feb45 - KIA (crash-landing)

44-14402 (355th FG 357th FS) OS-H Haviland Capt. Fred R Jr. "Barbara" Feb 45 - Hardee KIFA (not sure what Hardee is, base???)

44-15642 (356th FG 361st FS) QI-D Baskin Lt. Walter M Lost 13 Feb 45 KIFA

44-63250 (356th FG 359st FS) OC- Lost 20 Feb 45 - Capt. William F Traupe KIA MACR 12552

44-11332 (356th FG 359st FS) OC-A Brown Capt. Jack F Involved in MAC in this a/c 1 Feb 45

44-14773 (359th FG 370th FS) CS-G "Mickey The Twist/Little Mary" Lost 23 Feb 45 - Lt. Malcolm C Paulette KIA MACR 12673

44-13610 (359th FG 369th FS) IV-V Lost 22 Feb 45 - Lt. Russell E Masters KIA MACR 12652

44-11739 (479th FG 436th FS) 9B-P Lost 22 Feb 45 - Lt. Peter C Vassuer details unknown MACR 12672

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Hi Gilles,

You enlarge your area of researches. Soon, you should be welcome in Belgium!

ClinA-78

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Thanks Tony, that's a great job you did;

I attach a picture of a part found on site: could it help identify the aircraft type ?
I shall let you know this story gets clearer;

Clin: thanks but non, I am not working on this area: I am just helping some friends living there.
And if you come in Toulouse, you are welcome, you know that.

Cheers all.

GC

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

More eliminations:

44-11739 (479th FG 436th FS) 9B-P Lost 22 Feb 45 - Lt. Peter C Vassuer details unknown MACR 12672
** Crashed near Halberstadt, Germany

44-14773 (359th FG 370th FS) CS-G "Mickey The Twist/Little Mary" Lost 23 Feb 45 - Lt. Malcolm C Paulette KIA MACR 12673
** reports last radio contact at 1400hrs south of zwikau ,germany. Crash position unknown

44-14402 (355th FG 357th FS) OS-H Haviland Capt. Fred R Jr. "Barbara" Feb 45 - Hardee KIFA
** Hardee was pilot who was KIFA. Engine trouble upon return to UK base ** south of Ipswich after 6 1/2 hour mission.
** 1st Lieutenant Sellers S. Hardee crashed on Glandfields Farm
** Haviland was previous pilot and named aircraft 'Barbara'

44-14260 (355th FG 357th FS) OS-W Wilson Maj. John H. "Becky" 14 Feb45 - KIA (crash-landing)
** Maj Wilson crashed near an emergency airfield close to Fosse, Belgium.

44-11688 (78th FG 82nd FS) MX-U Bibeau Lt. Lucian J. Lost in 24 Feb 45 - KIA MACR 12616
** Hit by flak during strafing and crashed near Dummer Lake, Germany.

44-15630 (357th FG, 363rd FS) B6-L lost Feb 9, 1945. MACR 12172 *** Capt. James W Browning KIMCA
** Last seen near Wurges, Germany. Captain Browning's flight was
** engaged in a fierce dog fight with ME-262's. Captain Bockay was
** there also and shot down two German jet fighters, but never
** Capt. Browning's plane again. Apparently, he was involved in a fatal
** mid air collision with a ME262, from witnesses on the ground.

44-15483 (52nd FG) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12459 *** 52nd FG Based in Italy late war
** POW Pilot Bryant, Melvin H

44-15478 (31st FG) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12667 *** 31st FG Based in Italy late war
** POW Pilot Roraus, Talvin J.

44-15447 (31st FG) lost Feb 2, 1945. MACR 11816 *** 31st FG Based in Italy late war
** Pilot Wagner, Frank B down by AAA while attacking airdrome,
** Kurilovec, Yugoslavia. Unknown whether pilot survived

44-14975 (20th FG, 77th FS) LC-K lost Feb 19, 1945. MACR 12498 *** Lt. Robert E Murrell
** Lieutenant Robert E. Murrell (77th) hit a tree with his wing while
** strafing a locomotive. His plane crashed into the ground.
** The 20th Group was assigned to an area in north central Germany near ** Halle and Magdeburg in which to destroy enemy transportation. Led by ** Lt. Col. Gustke the Group took off at 1120 and arrived in the area at ** 1330. The squadrons split up and strafed the areas between
** Halberstadt and Leipzig until 1415 when they withdrew. 12 locomotives ** were destroyed or damaged

44-14949 (353rd FG, 351st FS) YJ-Q lost Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12622 *** Lt. Raymond Hilgenberg KIA
** Possibly downed by ME262 over Germany. Last seen mixing it up with
** 262s.

44-11244 (20th FG, 79th FS) MC-J lost Feb 24, 1945. MACR 12617 *** Lt. Leonard M Wright Jr.
** POW, engine trouble over Darfeld, Germany

43-25126 (31st FG) lost feb 2, 1945. MACR 11820 *** 31st FG Based in Italy late war
** Pilot Gibson, Geroge W Shot down by AAA while attacking airdrome,
** Kurilovec, Yugoslavia

43-24797 (31st FG, 309th FS) lost Feb 22, 1945. MACR 12668 *** 31st FG Based in Italy late war
** POW Pilot Cravey, John T shot down near Innsbruck, AU.

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Gilles,

Was the area liberated in Feb 1945? If so, then perhaps you can rule out (most of) the MACRs, since the pilot would not have been missing (his whereabouts or fate were known).

Regards,

Leendert

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

William D Bates FLOF AL 6 2 1945 P-51D # 44-13884 QP-V (no MACR, not in accident lists)
** Abort due to mechanical issues; bailed out over Channel. Expired
** before rescuers reached him.

Clarence Edward Mains 1L CA 12 2 1945
** Listed as Body not recovered, still MIA

Jerry R McDonald Capt TX 28 2 1945 P-51D
** Crashed after flak hit while stafing train, near Landshut, Germany

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Hi Leendert

good question, I shall check with the people doing the research locally.

Tony,

thanks a lot, Your efforts are very much appreciated. I forward all this information to theses guys looking for this Mustang.

Happy Christmas to all !!

GC

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

To help answer the question of whether or not the area was liberated in Feb 45, this link has a series of maps for WWII.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca...tlefront_Atlas

The map for Feb 1, 1945 show the area as being liberated.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...frontAtlas.jpg

If you follow back through the maps, it would appear the area was liberated in late 1944.

The area seems to have had several AF landing grounds by February, so the plane that crashed may have been returning from a mission over Germany (and a MACR may or may not have been filed) or it could have been an accidental crash.

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Gilles,

Confirmed that the image you posted (part 73-22002) is from a P-51 elevator. Could be a -B,C or D, but is from a fabric covered elevator. It is mid-way down the axis and the curved form metal is the front edge of the elevator.

Tony

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Is this the same plane where the part is kept at the town hall of Laneuveville sous Montfort? If yes, then I was told that US troops recovered the dead pilot the following day and that would indicate that the Mustang came down in friendly lines and there should not be a MACR. Danny

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Tony, McDonald actually crashed a few miles SE of Nuenrberg, not Landshut. That is where he was last seen, but he was shot down by AA fire while chasing a German fighter. Same AA fire also shot down the German. I have been to his crash-site and red painted nose cowling parts were recovered.
To the Mustang in question, if the local priest did not list his name in the cemetery book, then IDing the pilot might become a near impossibility without a MACR.
Danny

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Yes you're right Leendert, off course the area was liberated at this date and so there is probably no Macr, perhaps AR but not sure. This could be a hard file because there are no papers about it. First, local people must try to find more about the date ... This means to find eye-witnesses and ask ... Look on the local books written too ...
Perhaps some parts found could help to identify recce or fighter plane ...

Well lot of searches to do ... In the Vosges !

Stephane

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

True Stéphane, a lot of work to do, on site, to gather information.

And this should be done as soon as possible: witnesses are getting older and older, and are less and less....

Thanks to you all for your inputs.

Gilles

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Gilles,

In each searches i've made on east of France, i could find some informations in local history books. I hope your friends living there could find some. Most of the time, local historians have informations to share (off course, only when they are ready to share ... wich is sometimes difficult ...).

Good luck
Stef

Re: A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t
 

Thanks Stéphane (and the others) for your tips,

My friends are currently searching and if they find something tangible, I'll let you know.

All best.

Gilles