Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Hello,

Jochen Prien has sent an urgent request for help with the artwork for an eagle/hawk insignia that he wants to illustrate in his latest JFV (Purple) book 12/II, which is ready to go except for this.

Excerpts from his email to me:

"Attached you will find two photos of Bf 109 Fs of I./JG 52 with an enigmatic emblem, quite similar to a number of other emblems to be seen on the a/c of various Gruppen between 1940 and 1943....I need (this) for the addendum which will feature an extensive coverage of the emblems of I./JG 52 in the 1941/42 period. Attached too is a scan of an old print showing the emblem of 12./JG 2 in 1943, which to me seems to be very similar if not identical, albeit mirrored..."

In addition to these is an emblem noted by Robert Szoltyk, which Jochen has also supplied for attachment: Robert says: "I think that another of such "eagle" emblem was on (the a/c) of Lt. Hans Fuss (6./JG3): see pictures nos.082, 083 in JFV 9/II."

I've have made enlargements of these and cropped them for attachment to this email. The problem is that these images are too indistinct or incomplete to get good fix on the details, which look like an eagle, hawk or some other bird of prey, snatching something in its talons, One "something" looks like a cluster of white balls. This may or may not be related to the 12./JG2 emblem from 1943.

So can anyone help by supplying a much sharper image of the emblem that appeared on the I./JG52 a/c or the 6./JG3 a/c? If we can find suitable images from which to work, we have an artist standing by to complete the artwork necessary so that Jochen can quickly put JFV 12/II to bed.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-2hz...-2hzKfT9-S.jpg
http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-n4h...-n4hkwp4-S.jpg
http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-Hn3...-Hn3kJZc-S.jpg
http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-GN9...-GN9ms3h-S.jpg

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Hello Larry,

Going off your last image link, it appears the bird of prey is carrying a badly damaged roundel as a trophy of a successful kill. Identifying the bird, which is quite stylized, requires looking at the shape of the head and the tail as key features in my view. So here are a few image links which I hope will prove helpful or inspire others to provide further input.

Hawk

http://www.google.com/search?q=image...w=1280&bih=931


Eagle

http://www.google.com/search?q=image...w=1280&bih=931



Best,
Ed

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Ed,

Thanx for the bird images. I'll certainly make these available if we can get a sharper image to work from. Yes, the roundel is clear and that is not the image that we're having trouble with, it is the one of the rear fuselage of the first two, and possibly the third partial photo. We really can't be sure what the bird is clutching in its talons. Your effort to be helpful is appreciated.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Larry,

Have you contacted Axel Urbanke?



Best, Ed

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Larry,
To me it looks like the image 38 on page 26, for 12./JG 2 (Summer 42-Autumn 43), that appears in Barry Ketley's Luftwaffe Emblems 1939-1945, Flight Recorder Publications, (Crecy, 2012).

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

On the EDIT: SECOND image I believe there is either damage to the fuselage or an anomaly on the photo/neg which is obscuring the roundel. It is clearly the same emblem as depicted in the EDIT: FIRST image which is carrying a roundel. It appears that either the stencils for the more common variation of the emblem (image 4) were lost which meant another emblem artist had to interpret the original emblem, using maybe just paint brushes this time around or he thought he could do a better job and has redrawn the emblem in his own style. For me both styles of the emblem contain the same elements: Eagle/Hawk clutching a damaged roundel in it's talons. The only issue for me on the new variation is the distance between the roundel and the bird. Proportionately the legs and talons are going to be quite long compared to the position and size of the bird. :)

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Not to add confusion to the issue, but photos one and two clearly - to me anyway - show the wings in an outstretched position with a strange white highlighting along the edges, as if a strong light was being projected from behind (?) the bird. You'll note that the dark color of the wings appears inside their outer contour.

Could this be a personal emblem? Photo number 4 is clearly identified but does not line up with one and two.



Ed

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Hi Ed

The photos that Larry has shared are from three different airframes. I believe the emblem is a simplfied version of the previous 3./JG52 more elaborate emblem of an eagle carrying a clutch of roundels over the sea inside a shield

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Chris et.al.,

Good suggestion. However, I still think that we need a better resolution photo of this insignia to be able to accurately render a copy for Jochen's JFV book. I'm still hoping that someone has one.

Larry

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Hi Chris,


I can see that, but I'm still confused about the sharp highlighting given to the bird. My thought is that if a better image is not found, then print the best photo from the above and forgo with the illustration. Just as in Luftwaffe im Focus, it appears new information and new photos appear only after publication. If I understand right, aren't corrections added in subsequent books? I don't own a single one.


Ed

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Dear ChrisS,

thank you for your input. I'm afraid however that your approach does not help to solve the problem as the emblems in question seen on images # 1 and 2 can be seen on a/c of 3./JG 52 in Rissia in May/June 1942 ( # 3 ) and on an a/c of 1./JG 52 in the Netherlands in mid 1941 ( # 2 ). Therefore it seems that the emblem you referred to as the "former emblem of 3./JG 52" is something rather different, albeit an unsolved issue of its own.

The problem I'm facing is that for the period between mid 1941 and summer 1942, when I./JG 52 was re-equipped with the Bf 109 G-2, there are five different emblems to be seen on the Bf 109 F-2s and F-4s, one being the Gruppe badge and another the former Gruppe badge which had become the Staffel badge of 2./JG 52 as per mid 1941, which are identified beyond reasonable doubt.

The same - to me - applies to the "shot through umbrella" emblem of 3./JG 52 which can be seen between autumn 1941 and May 1942 on at least eight Bf 109 F-2s and F-4s ( see JFV 12/II to come ).

This leaves us with two emblems which are pending a definitive allocation - the eagle without a shield we're dealing with in this thread and the eagle on a shield that you referred to.

Regards

Jochen Prien

P.S.: Thanks of course too to all the other contributors to this thread and to Larry for spending his precious time to solve my problems.

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Hello Jochen

In Luftwaffe im Focus Nr19 pages 30-35 Axel Urbanke identifies this 'eagle with a clutch of roundels over waves in a shield' emblem as belonging to 3./JG 52, even illustrating a profile by Claes Sundin of Yellow 10 with the emblem. Is he then incorrect in this?

Cheers

Chris Simmonds

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Dear ChrisS,

I have seen the article in Luftwaffe im Focus. We disagree with respect to the allocation of the emblem you mentioned but only time and future findings will tell who is right and who is wrong. Our present state of research will be presented at the end of the Appendix to Vol. 12/II.

Regards

Jochen Prien

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Dear Jochen

Thank you for the reply. Axel may be wrong but the similarity between the 'concept' of the eagle carrying a clutch of roundels over a set of waves, which must have been a pain for the ground crews to paint, and the simplified eagle with only one distressed roundel, much easier for busy ground crew to apply, seems to me to have a strong resonance as both emblems have such similarity.

One of the arguments for 1./JG52 is that the two photographs in LiF 19/2012 are both of wheels-up landed JG52 Bf109-F's, one carries a '4' and the other '10' in a light colour outlined in black which would suggest 1./JG52 who used white numbers outlined black whereas 3./JG52 numbers were yellow outlined in white. I accept that this is a very strong argument however tonally both the 4 and 10 are darker than white especially when compared to the white of the adjacent balkankreuz and that the numbers are far closer in tone to the Russia rumpf/theatre band. With regard to the new emblem, one must ask why would 3./JG52 'pinch' an emblem so similar to 1./JG52 with an eagle and roundell? Could they not have been more 'original'? Then also why would 3./JG52 take a new emblem that contained the emblem of a country they fought almost a year in their past? Why not have the eagle carrying a soviet red star? No, I still believe that the previous emblem in LiF 19/2012 belongs to 3./JG52 and that the second emblem that you seek a better image of is in fact a modified variant of the earlier emblem.

But I look forward to Vol 12/11 with great anticipation!

Best Regards

Chris

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Hello Larry, Jochen and others,

Picture number 3 relates to Leutnant Hans Fuß. Here as Staffelkapitän of 6./JG 3 (appointed on 1 Aug 42) at Tusow (as from 11 Aug 42). On the picture is Me 109F-4, w/nr 13248. On the tail are 67 victory-bars - on 17 Aug 42 Fuß claimed number 67 and on 21 Aug 42 number 68. Picture must have been taken between these dates. Other sources state victory 67 at 9 Aug 42 (then picture might have been taken at Frolow).

I am unaware of bird wing markings at other Me 109's of 6./JG 3 or in II./JG 3. Could this Me 109F-4 previously been of JG 52??

II./JG 3 was still flying with Me 109F-4 at that time. One of the last missions from Frolow on 23 Aug 43 and then replaced with Me 109G-2 at Köningsberg end of August/beginning September 1942.

Best regards,
Rob

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Rob,

Thanx for your comments about the Fuss a/c. I will leave it to Jochen whether this is a former JG52 a/c. On this a/c this seems to have been most probably a personal insignia if it wasn't a transfer from JG52.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Gentlemen,

The arguments for the emblem being 1./JG 52 are presented by Sinisa Sestanovic here: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...l=%223.jg52%22

Happy Christmas!

Chris

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Larry,

Who are the pilots in your first post?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Rob,

I don't know this. I just posted the photos for Jochen. This time frame is outside my area of expertise.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Someone has produced the eagle with roundel and posted under JG2 here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/per...tor-35198.html. Perhaps this person has some info.

Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork
 

Hello Larry,

Did some further research - II./JG 3 received 32 Me 109's in July 1942 from other units; probably from III./JG 52 and I./JG 53, which were equipped with Me 109G-2's at that time. See Prien and Stemmer, II./JG 3, page 161. This might explain origin of the insignia with the wings on the Me 109 of Leutnant Hans Fuß. I am unaware that this might have been his personal insignia.

Best regards,
Rob