7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

7 July 1941, a major air battle in the area of ​​the river Dvina. The Russians have lost at least 10 SB. Probably they were attacked by JG 54 pilots?

Does anyone have information on this battle: the time, the number of reported victories by JG 54?

Regards,
mirekw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

07-Jul-41, Hptm., Franz, Eckerle, II., 6., JG 54, DB-3, -, 06.46, 13., 316, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Werner, Dieball, II., 6., JG 54, DB-3, -, 06.48, 1., 317, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hubert, Mütherich, II., 5., JG 54, I-18, -, 06.58, 19., 318, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hans, Schmoller-Haldy, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, 10km südwestlich Seledna, 07.55, 4., 116, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Helmut, Zilken, III., 9., JG 54, SB-3, -, 07.56, 7., 235, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 988/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Karl-Heinz, Bornemann, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, -, 07.58, 2., 117, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 937/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Gerhard, Lautenschläger, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.00, 1., 118, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Helmut, Zilken, III., 9., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.00, 8., 236, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 988/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Arnold, Lignitz, III., Stab III., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.02, 23., 237, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 983/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Gerhard, Koall, III., Stab III., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.02, 4., 238, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 983/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Georg, Ruland, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.06, ., 119, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 937/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Gerhard, Lautenschläger, I., 3., JG 54, SB-3, -, 08.08, 2., 120, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 937/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Werner, Nelte, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 10.30, 1., 121, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Hptm., Reinhard, Seiler, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, nordöstlich Ostrow, 10.31, 10., 122, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 69 928/41, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ogefr., Werner, Opalke, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 10.33, 2., 123, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Hans, Beißwenger, II., 6., JG 54, SB-3, -, 10.55, 9., 319, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Josef, Pöhs, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, -, 10.56, 17., 320, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hubert, Mütherich, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, -, 10.57, 20., 321, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hubert, Mütherich, II., 5., JG 54, RZ, -, 10.58, 21., 322, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Hptm., Reinhard, Seiler, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, Ostrow, 11.00, 11., 124, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 69 928/41, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Hermann, Leiste, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.35, 5., 239, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ogefr., Heinz, Wrontzki, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.36, 1., 240, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Hermann, Leiste, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.37, 6., 241, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Ogefr., Bernhard, Wrontzki, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.38, 2., 242, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 91 984/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Günther, Scholz, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.40, 15., 243, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Wilhelm, Süwolto, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.41, ., 125, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Günther, Scholz, III., 7., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.41, 16., 244, yes, C.2031/I, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Fw., Hans, Clausen, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.42, 3., 126, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Karl, Kaufhold, I., 1., JG 54, SB-2, -, 15.43, ., 127, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Hptm., Franz, Eckerle, II., 6., JG 54, SB-3, -, 15.50, 14., 323, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Hans, Götz, I., 1., JG 54, SB-3, -, 16.00, 6., 128, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 934/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Wolfgang, Späte, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, nordöstlich Ostrow, 18.55, 11., 324, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hubert, Mütherich, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, nordöstlich Ostrow, 18.55, 22., 325, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Friedrich, Zander, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, nordwestlich Ostrow, 18.57, 5., 326, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Gerhard, Ludwig, I., 2., JG 54, SB-3, -, 19.05, ., 129, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Fw., Karl, Fuchs, I., 2., JG 54, I-26, -, 19.06, 3., 130, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Gefr., Peter, Bremer, I., 2., JG 54, SB-3, -, 19.07, 1., 131, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Gefr., Rudolf, Gerecke, I., 2., JG 54, SB-3, -, 19.08, 2., 132, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Fw., Karl, Fuchs, I., 2., JG 54, I-16 Rata, 20km nordöstlich Ostrow, 19.12, 4., 133, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Hptm., Reinhard, Seiler, I., 1., JG 54, I-18, nördlich Ostrow, 19.15, 12., 134, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 69 928/41, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Günter, Range, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, -, 19.25, 1., 327, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Josef, Pöhs, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, Ostrow/Dünaburg, 19.40, 18., 328, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ofw., Bruno, Preuß, I., 3., JG 54, R-5, -, 20.48, ., 135, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 289/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Gerhard, Lautenschläger, I., 3., JG 54, I-15, -, 20.50, 3., 136, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 91 937/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Gefr., Paul, Breitling, I., 3., JG 54, I-18, 4km südlich Porchow, 20.53, ., 137, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Gerhard, Lautenschläger, I., 3., JG 54, I-18, -, 20.55, 4., 138, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Thanks, it is quite many, :-)
It was 10 SB total lost from 35. SBAP of 4. SAD which took off from Staraya Russa

Regards,
mirekw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Mirek,

Do you have any other details about the battle?

Time. Damaged AC etc?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

According vicotries I would like to find this too, but it was a very good day for JG 54. And many vicotries. So this is not so easy to match it.

It was 10 total lost SB from 35. SBP of 4.SAD in the Dvinsk area (river Dvina, only 2 had retured to base. Due to other combat in this area and planty of victories of JG 54 it is some problems to decide, which planes were shot down from this regiment.

mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Mirek, no time for the combat?

Rob

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Pity, but no, whole day!
mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Does that mean 40 something claims vs 10 real losses? Do you have anything about Russian figher losses?

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Rob, Mirek,

Have a look at the claims timed between about 1530 and 1600. I think those pertain to the 35 SBAP losses because they are the most numerous.

I know that's a fairly weak argument but if you compare the timings of the different pilots' claims you come up with...
A couple of claims around 7am, the same an hour later, similar around 1030 - all of which seem too few to match with 35 SBAP's losses.
Then you have a whole swag in the 1530-1600 "timeslot" as mentioned above.

The other possibility is the evening raid from 1855 onward, but at that time they were claiming DB-3s and having just enough faith in the Jagdflieger's aircraft identification skills, I would say all the SBs mentioned around 1530-

Nick

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

I have never said that agains 40 claims's JG 54 were only 10 losses! No way.
The whole formation had 12 only planes, they flown in 2 formations of 6. One of them was totaly destroyed (all 6) second 4 of 6, means 10.

There were of course other combats on 7.07, I think so. The time of victories show them. It was important area and Soviet would like to break the supply chain (bridges) on Dzwina and stop the motorise units.

Sorry, what kind of Soviet's fighters in this are? I do not know f there were over Dzwina any? Second the bases were quite far about 300 km away.

Nick, I think that it was after 12.00 a.m., but I do not know for sure too.

mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

I have got some new data to this battle. Soviet formation took off before 17.00 and landed about 20.00 Moscow time. Only victories after 18.55 Berlin time could be counted. The attack was done from quite low hight (800-100 m). It means that some losses were done by flak too. According surviving crews bombers were attacked by "15 Me 109" and had met with strong A/A fire too over the target.

Regards,
mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Hi,
then the more likely are these:

07-Jul-41, Oblt., Wolfgang, Späte, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, nordöstlich Ostrow, 18.55, 11., 324, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Hubert, Mütherich, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, nordöstlich Ostrow, 18.55, 22., 325, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Friedrich, Zander, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, nordwestlich Ostrow, 18.57, 5., 326, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Oblt., Gerhard, Ludwig, I., 2., JG 54, SB-3, -, 19.05, ., 129, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Fw., Karl, Fuchs, I., 2., JG 54, I-26, -, 19.06, 3., 130, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Gefr., Peter, Bremer, I., 2., JG 54, SB-3, -, 19.07, 1., 131, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Gefr., Rudolf, Gerecke, I., 2., JG 54, SB-3, -, 19.08, 2., 132, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 83 005/42, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Fw., Karl, Fuchs, I., 2., JG 54, I-16 Rata, 20km nordöstlich Ostrow, 19.12, 4., 133, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Hptm., Reinhard, Seiler, I., 1., JG 54, I-18, nördlich Ostrow, 19.15, 12., 134, yes, C.2036/II, Nr. 69 928/41, Prien/Bock,
07-Jul-41, Uffz., Günter, Range, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, -, 19.25, 1., 327, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,
07-Jul-41, Ltn., Josef, Pöhs, II., 5., JG 54, DB-3, Ostrow/Dünaburg, 19.40, 18., 328, yes, Prien/Bock, , ,

At what distance-flight time to the airport was the site of the battle???

regards

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

The distance from Starya Russa was about 350 km away, about ~1,0 hour flight for SB, and later return, So the combat took place with this formation about 18.00 (Moscow) or 19.00 (Berliin time - since 18.55). It is possible. Earlier combat were with other formations..

There were no fighter protection for them, too far way for Ratas.

mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Mirek,
Did you have anything on the other SB bombers lost on the 07 July? I found at least 3 SB that the 201 SBAP lost going to Sotrov. The 205 SBAP lost two. The 66 UAE lost another 4 SB. All of these just from the 41 SAD. I haven't checked 2 SAD and 1 BAK.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

No, I do not have. I have been interested only in one combat flight done by ex-NKVD bomber unit included into one normal bomber regiment. I have got these data and it was the end of my "research" on this topic.

Regards,
mirekw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Mirek, The NKVD unit mentioned was it the 11 OAE?

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Yes,
it was, (from Saarema),

mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

The information that I read stated that there were four SB of which three crews perished and one made it across the front line before force landing (all in air battles). Strange that I couldn't find any of the KIA pilots listed in the OBD and one of which the only thing I could find was his initials and last name at the site of the information.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

BTW
maybe it is not in the list of VVS RKKA, but would be in the lost list of soldiers of NKWD. This is just a guess?
mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

I found the two crews from that unit shot down over the Karelian Front by Finnish ace Ovia Emil Kalervo Tuominen on the 30 Jul 1941 but no mention of the ones on the 07 Jul 1941. I've noticed that some losses are smashed together with one name and don't show up on their own. Also that some names are still being entered according to one Russian website.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

In the OdB of 11 OAE PW NKWD were SBs and MBR-2s ( a zvieno - 3), some crews were transfered to bomber units of RKKA, and the crews of MBRs were transferred to VVS VMF KBF.
I know that 2 MBR were lost over Finnish territory with whole crews. There were send in secret mission behind Finnish territory to drop agents, but were missing with whole crews. The body of them were found quite late, in the 60-ties or so.

I do not remember any bomber action of SBs crews over Finnish territory, they fight only against German, If I am right?

mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

I ran across a good description of Tuomien's battle on the 30 Jul 41 going through sites with his name. He describes how he saw two SB flying together and how he shot them down. After the war he became a taxi driver.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

This is a strange infomation? After the battle on 7.07.41 this whole flight was almost total destroyed (there were left only 2 SBs + 1 USB). His commander major Pietrov had returned on USB to Moscow on 11.07, where he began retaining on Pe-2. A few surviving crews were disperced among other flights of 4. SAD/35. SBAP,

2xMBR-2 of 11. OAE were lost on 29.07.41, both - MIA.

So, these 2 SB's were not from 11. OAE, I think so. It does not fit.

mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

I ran the names of the two SB pilots they listed and the unit was 11 OAE PV NKVD (deputy AE C.O.) St. Lt Vasiliy Petrovich Starostin (MIA) and (flight C.O.) St. Lt. Nikolay Ustinovich Sidorenko (MIA).

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Something wrong with our data. According mine, the two commander pilot's names were: starszyj let. W. Starostin and second was G. Sawczenko (Savchenko). One name is overlaping with your.

I think that it was MBR-2 crews in secret mission behing Finnish territory, they had to drop agens/diversants, lost on 29.07.
In this period it should be no SBs of NKWD's units on the front, only see zvieno.

mw

BTW
Commander of whole 11, OAE was major Pietrov. He flown on SB and took part in bomber mission. SB since 22.06.41 were sent on German units in Latvia, later over Russia. The last combat mission was done on 7.07.41. Since 1.07.41 SB took of to the action from Wechna (Vehna) airfiled and later from Staraja Russa. The base was too far to Finland already on 7.07.41.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Are these the last names of the pilots lost on the 07 Jul 41: Anchuk, Korolev, Samokhin and the survivor Tsatsenko? All of which are not listed in the OBD.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Yes, there are: 3 KIA crews plus one force landed, all were wounded, but returned to the unit later. After the combat on 7.07.41 this flight had not existed more. 2 SB were handed over to 4. SAD and 1 USB had returned to Moscow (Bykovo) with Pietrov on 11.07 to report to comand of Air Brigade of PW NKWD. Soon they began to form new unit on Pe-2.

mw.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Mirek, I went back and found the description for Touminen for the 30 Jul 1941 08:35-09:20 over Aunus, he was flying Fiat G.50. "I flew towards Vitele and Tuulos, flying away 1000 metres higher towards the sun. I caught the planes about 10 km east of Tuulos. There was no gunner in the wing aircraft and I shot a burst straight over the rudder, when it pulled straight up and went into a spin. I shot two burst to the gunner of the other and after that from above a burst to the back of the pilot and the same followed as with the first aircraft. The armour piercing bullets appeared to go well through the pilot's armour plate. Combat altitude 4,200 m. My plane was FA-26". Below this description it had credited as probable as there was no witnesses. The other kills had some Soviet unit listed but I think that they were looking for main stream KA VVS units and no one thought about checking a NKVD border unit. These are listed with the list on Finnish war victories on another website.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

Trouble is the lack of application type in his statment? The difference in shape between MBR-2 and SB is enormous. Finnish pilot rather should recognize the type of aircraft shot down, the mistake is unlikely. BTW, FAF's pilot had shot from quite short distance 50-200 m.

The fact is the loss of two MBR-2 29 July 1941. Reason unknown by the Russians? It could lead to a collision, another possibility could be shot down? In late July of Finland were sent only to the former 11 OAE PM NKVD seaplanes. Bombers fought on and elsewhere.

July 30 may have a different air combat with bombers RKKA, which is also possible?

mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

BTW, why not Tuomikoski in FA-33, who claimed excatly a MBR-2 in the same area, and in the same time like Tuominen in FA-26?

mw

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

The reason that I listed is that in the OBD that it lists them as "Did not return from combat mission" on the 30 Jul 41. Also that the website "forum" that they were discussing the 11 OAE PM NKVD had one person who had gone into some research it seemed to establish that they were flying SB's on the 30 July. I did see something about another Finnish pilot shooting down MBR-2 somewhere in that time frame.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

The lost of 2XMBR-2 on 29.07 or 30.07.41 has the same possibility. One day after, earlier in report, it could be wrong written.

In my opinion 2xSBs lost over Finland, it make no sense, they had operated over far different area and had been withdrown from combat operation after 7.07.41., when lost 4 SBs, and only 2 left plus 1 USB

FAF's pilot could destroyed these MBR-2s.

mw

BTW
In July 41 NKWD's MBR-2 were already in VVS VMF KBF.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

So all we can say for sure is that 4 SB from the 11 OAE were taken into the 35 SBAP and were not a separate unit at the time of the loss on the 07 Jul 41.

Re: 7.07.41 and claims/victories of JG 54?
 

No, not 4 but more, at least 6 SB + 1 USB means 7 SB. All were 9 SBs in 11. OAE on 22.06.41 + 3 MBR-2.

It was standard procedure created before war. After the war broken all NKWD's border units were cleary subordianted to the land, air or see forces. And it was happend also to 11. OAE.
11. OAE was transfered to ladn air frces (VVS RKKA) too as a one of flight (escadrila) in bomber regiment - 35. SBAP. It could not be a separate unit in the war.

mw